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re: Much Needed Clarity Regarding the Pope and the Recent Document Regarding Blessings

Posted on 1/3/24 at 9:06 pm to
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
53646 posts
Posted on 1/3/24 at 9:06 pm to
I'm glad you asked.

It's biblical to do so, is the answer. Here's a brief article explaining why.

LINK

Posted by MemphisGuy
Germantown, TN
Member since Nov 2023
13780 posts
Posted on 1/3/24 at 9:18 pm to
quote:

It's biblical to do so


Is it?

1 Timothy 2:5-6 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

Also John 20:23 nowhere mentions confession of sin, nor does it promise or even hint that apostolic authority of any kind would be passed on to the successors of the apostles. The apostles never once in the New Testament acted as if they had the authority to forgive a person’s sin.
Posted by Mo Jeaux
Member since Aug 2008
62483 posts
Posted on 1/3/24 at 9:23 pm to
quote:

The apostles never once in the New Testament acted as if they had the authority to forgive a person’s sin.


Then they disobeyed Christ’s orders when he sent them out into the world. Naughty, naughty Apostles.
Posted by MemphisGuy
Germantown, TN
Member since Nov 2023
13780 posts
Posted on 1/3/24 at 9:34 pm to
quote:

Then they disobeyed Christ’s orders when he sent them out into the world.


How so?

John 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained”.

It simply says IF. Not commanding them to forgive sins or take "confessional" or anything of that nature.
Posted by Mo Jeaux
Member since Aug 2008
62483 posts
Posted on 1/3/24 at 9:37 pm to
So Christ gave them the express authority to do something, but because there is no express instance in the scriptures of them doing so, they didn’t?

Let me ask you, did they poop?

You sola scriptura people,are going to have to do some serious mental gymnastics to figure out how the digestive systems of the early believers worked.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
53646 posts
Posted on 1/3/24 at 10:24 pm to
The Sola Scriptura guys will always always demand more biblical evidence when a Catholic Doctrine cites a Bible passage as support. Jesus saying it to their faces and then Fifteen Centuries of the Church putting Jesus's words and deeds aren't enough - the Prot will always move the goalpost.

Fifteen Centuries of Church practice, based on a Bible passage will never be enough for them.

Posted by GreenRockTiger
vortex to the whirlpool of despair
Member since Jun 2020
58775 posts
Posted on 1/3/24 at 10:47 pm to
quote:

Perhaps I should've just said that does not happen.
it does, I’m sorry you don’t understand it believe. I’ll pray for you.
Posted by catholictigerfan
Member since Oct 2009
59615 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 8:03 am to
I find it interesting that the early Church seemed to practice confession and not private confessing of sins to God.

The Didache

quote:

“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).


St. Ignatius of Antioch
quote:

“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).


St. Jerome
quote:

“If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him” (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).



here are some more qoutes

While the practice of confession has developed throughout the centuries, the early church confessed their sins to a priest who had been given power by Jesus Christ to forgive sins. That continues today.

edit: I'm not saying these words are inspired but they give us insight into how early Christians interpreted the scriptures. I know I have bias but the Church Fathers I read all seem to support the Catholic Church's teaching.
This post was edited on 1/4/24 at 8:05 am
Posted by catholictigerfan
Member since Oct 2009
59615 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 8:15 am to
quote:

1 Timothy 2:5-6 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.


actually in the confession a person is confessing their sins to Jesus, just in the presence of the priest.

I encourage you to read up on how a priest is in persona christi and how when a priest celebrates the sacraments it is not the priest doing it but Jesus working through the priest.

Video explaining In Persona Christ, and other things

the video above is from Fr. Mike Schmitz explaining the section of the catechism that explains the two priesthoods of the faithful, common and ministerial. Also explains the concept of in persona Christi Capitis.

simply put, when a priest celebrates the sacrament it is really Christ working through him. In a deeper way Jesus is the one doing the work of the sacrament, the priest is merely an instrument.
This post was edited on 1/4/24 at 8:17 am
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62010 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 8:21 am to
quote:

But I would assume that we are still fulfilling his command to receive both his body and blood, as we teach he is present fully body and blood in both species.


And this is always the caveat. You proclaim yourselves the arbiter of all truths. Meaning, we make up any rule we want to accommodate our beliefs and circumvent anything that’s inconvenient to our theology.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
53646 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 8:21 am to
The Early Church and the whole Church for over Fifteen Centuries agreed with the RCC today on this issue. You are free to disagree with the Early Church and the RCC, but, the facts are facts.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
53646 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 8:22 am to
quote:

And this is always the caveat. You proclaim yourselves the arbiter of all truths. Meaning, we make up any rule we want to accommodate our beliefs and circumvent anything that’s inconvenient to our theology.


This is exactly how Protestantism was founded!

Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62010 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 8:23 am to
quote:

anything is possible with God


The classic catch all phrase to cover all the Catholic teachings that aren’t taught in the Bible, but that the RCC wants to do anyway.
Posted by CatholicLSUDude
Member since Aug 2018
1033 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 8:24 am to
quote:

teachings that aren’t taught in the Bible


Like sola scriptura?
Posted by Stumpknocker
SWLA
Member since Mar 2021
790 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 8:25 am to
With so much else going on in the world, I don’t have time to worry about this.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
53646 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 8:58 am to
I found it revealing when in an earlier post in this thread, a poster with a good memory mentioned that the same two Protestants (Rev and Foo) have been at this game for over ten years - bashing Catholics.

Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62010 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 8:59 am to
quote:

Like sola scriptura?


Jesus said a person had to be born again to see the kingdom of heaven. The Bible tells a person all he/she needs to know to be saved. This is the most important thing, and it’s all in the Bible.
Posted by CatholicLSUDude
Member since Aug 2018
1033 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 9:03 am to
quote:

Jesus said a person had to be born again to see the kingdom of heaven. The Bible tells a person all he/she needs to know to be saved. This is the most important thing, and it’s all in the Bible.


Define sola scriptura as you see it, then justify your definition by doing nothing but quoting the Bible.
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62010 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 9:06 am to
quote:

Define sola scriptura as you see it, then justify your definition by doing nothing but quoting the Bible.




Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.
Posted by Champagne
Sabine Free State.
Member since Oct 2007
53646 posts
Posted on 1/4/24 at 9:34 am to
quote:

Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.



And that fundamental axiom of Protestantism is nowhere to be found in the Bible. There's a quote from a letter from Paul saying that Scripture is sufficient and useful, and that is always cited as the Proof Text for Sola Scriptura, but, that interpretation of that passage really strains credulity, when you read it with an objective point of view.

Fact is, Sola Scriptura was invented over Fifteen Centuries after Christ founded His Church on earth. It was an absolutely unknown theological concept until the 1500s A.D. That's more than 15 centuries after Christ.

As such, to be persuaded by the Protestant arguments on this issue, one cannot approach the matter as a completely objective analyst searching for Truth. If you are, you realize that 15 Centuries is a long time to wait for a Fundamental Truth to be Revealed by God. You realize that surely God bequeathed Truth to his people a bit sooner than over One Thousand and Five Hundred Years after Christ founded His Church. I mean, that's what makes logical sense.

However, if a person has always been in a Protestant environment, they will take that Proof Text for granted. They won't subject it to any logical analysis.

I personally approached this issue with an objective and open-minded viewpoint. I wanted to logically analyze this "Proof Text" without any pre-judging or predisposition. I did not approach my task from the perspective as a committed Catholic, because I was not a lifelong practicing Catholic when I considered the issue.

The conclusion I reached was that the Catholic positions on Bible Alone and Faith Alone are correct. Study of History bears this out. Study of Church history supports this. Also, logic supports the Catholic interpretation.



This post was edited on 1/4/24 at 9:46 am
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