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Started By
Message
re: More historians call out Ken Burns on his BS documentary of the American Revolution
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:01 am to ChineseBandit58
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:01 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
The St. Augustine event did not have an influence onto our later cultural development.
So it is a footnote in history.
Oh, believe me I know. However, it's still a historical fact that the first Thanksgiving meal held between Europeans and Native Americans occurred on September 8, 1565 at the Mission of Nombre de Dios in St. Augustine, FL. There is a large cross that stands on the exact site of the event that you can walk up to and take photographs of in 2025.
This post was edited on 11/28/25 at 7:02 am
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Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:03 am to L.A.
My kids textbook said the same. I had never heard of it until this year.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:09 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
That is a true factoid - but irrelevant wrt our evolution into the nation we are today.
The St. Augustine event did not have an influence onto our later cultural development.
True. St Augustine is the first documented shared meal between Europeans and “natives”, but the Plymouth event is the origin of our modern tradition.
If the modern tradition had been based on St Aug, we would be eating salt pork, garbanzo beans, hard biscuits, and cheap wine.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:13 am to L.A.
quote:
Instead, the script and countless commentators routinely appear to constantly connect everything to Native Americans “losing land” or slavery. In fact, neither played a seminal part in the Revolution.
quote:
Yet Burns gives them undue prominence and attention. The constant insistence on bringing these topics up makes the film practically unwatchable.
This is exactly what Ken Burns does. Watch his series on country music and you'll see what I'm talking about.
This post was edited on 11/28/25 at 7:38 am
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:17 am to Willie Stroker
quote:
St Augustine is the first documented shared meal between Europeans and “natives”, but the Plymouth event is the origin of our modern tradition.
I think you're going to start to see a shift in this line of thinking in the coming years and decades. Florida, in 2021, passed a resolution proclaiming September 8, 1565, as the first Thanksgiving celebration in America. Thousands gathered in St. Augustine back in September to watch the reenactment of the mass and Thanksgiving meal to celebrate the city's 460th birthday. There is also a much larger Catholic population in the United States than there was even 50 years ago. Not to mention the fact that the new pope is himself American.
This post was edited on 11/28/25 at 7:18 am
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:25 am to LuckyTiger
quote:
LuckyTiger
I appreciate your analysis. It is also very funny if juxtaposed against JackieTreehorn’s just below yours.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:27 am to Upperaltiger06
quote:
I didn’t know until several months ago that the Alabama and Florida flags were derived from the flag of burgundy used by the Spanish conquistadors.
Places like Mobile and Pensacola were all part of Spanish West Florida and flew under the Spanish, French and British flags before becoming part of America all the way in 1821.
An interesting piece of trivia is that Pensacola was the first European settlement in what is the modern United States, being originally founded in 1559 as “Santa María de Filipina” six years before Pensacola and 48 years before Jamestown.
The original settlement was wiped out by a massive hurricane shortly thereafter and wasn’t resettled until 1698.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:29 am to ChineseBandit58
quote:
That is a true factoid - but irrelevant wrt our evolution into the nation we are today.
The St. Augustine event did not have an influence onto our later cultural development.
So it is a footnote in history.
Well put. This is similar to crediting Columbus with the discovery of America. Pedantics will tell you the Vikings did it first, but the point is that none of that went anywhere.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:37 am to L.A.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:42 am to L.A.
This is his penance to the Left for giving Shelby Foote such a prominent place in The Civil War.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:42 am to Penrod
quote:
This is similar to crediting Columbus with the discovery of America. Pedantics will tell you the Vikings did it first, but the point is that none of that went anywhere.
Eh....not really.
New England writers were central in spreading the story of the first Thanksgiving and were dead set on making Plymouth and the Pilgrims the central protagonists of the narrative. Which makes sense considering New England had a strong Calvinist/Anglican presence in that region during the 19th Century when the story of Plymouth really began to circulate.
They were also very much aware that the Spaniards had pre-dated Plymouth by over half a century but ignored that fact because they wanted to tie the first Thanksgiving to the Anglo-Protestant origins of the United States.
Prior to the 1960s, most people still regarded the Viking tales of Vinland as nothing short of legendary.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:54 am to GregMaddux
quote:
Pretty sure i was taught this in elementary school.
You're a first-year grad student; you just got finished reading some Marxian historian, Pete Garrison probably. You're gonna be convinced of that 'till next month when you get to James Lemon, and then you're gonna be talkin' about how the economies of Virginia and Pennsylvania were entrepreneurial and capitalist way back in 1740. That's gonna last until next year -- you're gonna be in here regurgitating Gordon Wood, talkin' about, you know, the Pre-revolutionary utopia and the capital-forming effects of military mobilization.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 7:59 am to RollTide1987
quote:
New England writers were central in spreading the story of the first Thanksgiving and were dead set on making Plymouth and the Pilgrims the central protagonists of the narrative. Which makes sense considering New England had a strong Calvinist/Anglican presence in that region during the 19th Century when the story of Plymouth really began to circulate.
They were also very much aware that the Spaniards had pre-dated Plymouth by over half a century but ignored that fact because they wanted to tie the first Thanksgiving to the Anglo-Protestant origins of the United States.
Prior to the 1960s, most people still regarded the Viking tales of Vinland as nothing short of legendary.
Probably all true, but what I wrote still stands: that there is a thread of history, and if something occurred outside of that thread then it has far less relevance to the same thing occurring within it.
The Catholic Spaniards were fortunately defeated in the quest for our part of the new world. This is why we have the liberal tradition that set free the spirits of the common man and allowed us to triumph over the entire world and to transform the world.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 8:10 am to L.A.
I watch Victor David Hanson podcast and he discussed this aspect of the documentary. As always, VDH was respectful and professional but he basically called bullshite on the founding fathers being introduced to our Democratic Republic by the Iroquois.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 8:19 am to Penrod
quote:
Probably all true, but what I wrote still stands: that there is a thread of history, and if something occurred outside of that thread then it has far less relevance to the same thing occurring within it.
You're not talking about history, though; you're talking about myth-making. Even if you were, historical narratives tend to change with the passage of time as new historians lend new interpretations to the record. History was deliberately ignored in this particular case to push a national myth.
quote:
The Catholic Spaniards were fortunately defeated in the quest for our part of the new world.
That's neither here nor there. We acknowledge the fact that the Spaniards were the ones who discovered and explored large swaths of North and South America throughout the 15th and 16th centuries. I don't see a problem with likewise acknowledging the fact that they were the first people to sit down to a meal of thanksgiving with the natives. Considering the fact that their presence in the Americas pre-dates the English by over a century, that doesn't seem too much of a stretch.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 8:25 am to RollTide1987
So gatorgiving holiday on sept 8, maybe they can serve ham 
Posted on 11/28/25 at 8:31 am to GregMaddux
quote:
Pretty sure i was taught this in elementary school.
I'm 40 and I was never taught this. Of course I had an awesome teacher in the 4th grade that taught us about the Roman Empire.
We gotta go back.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 8:37 am to RollTide1987
quote:
That's neither here nor there. We acknowledge the fact that the Spaniards were the ones who discovered and explored large swaths of North and South America throughout the 15th and 16th centuries. I don't see a problem with likewise acknowledging the fact that they were the first people to sit down to a meal of thanksgiving with the natives.
But were they? Almost certainly not. Again, it was outside the thread of the history of this great country, so who cares (besides you) that they had a meal? And who cares if the Vikings had various meals with the Indians? Those Spaniards represented the old world and its aristocratic hierarchy. The Plymouth colonies represented the new world and egalitarian democracy.
In 1215 some noblemen cornered King John of England and forced him to sign the Magna Carta. Other things were happening around the world, and in England, at that time. But the thing that was most salient to the progress of humans was the provisions advanced by Magna Carta, so we revere that part of history more than the others.
The most salient thing of this nature is what happened in the course of the Protestant discovery and development of this country.
This post was edited on 11/28/25 at 8:41 am
Posted on 11/28/25 at 8:49 am to Penrod
quote:
Again, it was outside the thread of the history of this great country, so who cares (besides you) that they had a meal?
This is a foolish argument considering the fact that the meal the Pilgrims had with the natives at Plymouth is likewise outside the history of this great country. We were founded as a nation in 1776 and the meal between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoags occurred in 1621 - some 155 years apart. Not to mention the fact that the 1621 meal would not have been possible without the Spanish explorations of 1492-1600.
With this in mind, the meal that took place in St. Augustine lies within the thread of the history of this great country also. Because without the Spanish, the English would not be here, and without the English we would not be here.
Posted on 11/28/25 at 9:30 am to L.A.
What doesn’t get enough play is the first genocides were tribe on tribe.
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