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Message
re: Memo to all Christians who are struggling with the decision to vote for Trump
Posted on 10/21/24 at 5:53 pm to Bass Tiger
Posted on 10/21/24 at 5:53 pm to Bass Tiger
If they vote for her there is nothing Christ like about them.
1
Posted on 10/21/24 at 5:56 pm to Stonehenge
quote:
Trump is not a Christian. Real Christians should not support him.
Or, perhaps to the contrary, real Christians must support him?
quote:
It would be better to ask what purity with a brain looks like. When you are voting, you are not performing a discrete action, like putting the eight ball into the corner pocket. And you are not on an undercover mission, sleeping with other women. You are not the holy hermit, appointing the righteous man to be king. Rather, you are leaning in the direction of a more desirable state of affairs, together with millions of others. Imagine the canoe of state, containing millions. You can lean to port, or to starboard. Or you can just sit there, thinking pure thoughts, getting in the way.
So, what should you do this coming November? I will simply tell you what I am going to do, in the light of all the reasoning above, and you can put together my recommendation from that. I am going to vote for Trump, and when I leave the polling station I will do so without any stain on my conscience, and I will climb into my truck, chortling. I will do this because I would greatly prefer the state of affairs that would result from his election to the state of affairs that will result from the alternative. This is not because I want a pleasant state of affairs for me, righteousness be damned, but rather because I want righteousness to not lose any more maneuvering room.
This is not a case of “let us do evil that good may result.” Rather it is an instance of doing as much limited good as we can, so that more good might come from it. What is that limited good? If Harris is elected, there will be no evangelicals in the White House, or anywhere near it. David French might be allowed to come to a dinner a time or two to be given his crust, until they are done with him, but that will be pretty much it. If Trump is elected, the place will be crawling with believers. And at the end of the day, personnel is policy.
Why Your Vote is No Sacrament by Doug Wilson
This post was edited on 10/21/24 at 11:36 pm
Posted on 10/21/24 at 7:02 pm to AlwysATgr
Posted on 10/21/24 at 7:11 pm to ljhog
Wrong
Posted on 10/21/24 at 7:11 pm to FooManChoo
quote:quote:
Any man can accept that free gift.
No, any man cannot.
ummmm, the thief did. He certainly never showed fruits of which the Bible claims demonstrates acceptance into the Kingdom of Heaven. All it takes is one, to show that God saves outside the barriers that Calvin taught
quote:
he predestined us for adoption to himself
You struggle with simple definitions
quote:
adopt - to take by choice into a relationship; to accept and establish in a formal or official way
You have no choice in predestination, The choice that is clearly defined here, is the path of salvation designed for all of us to choose or refuse
quote:
we have obtained an inheritance
more trouble with definitions
quote:
inheritance - something that is or may be inherited; to receive something from someone after they have died
First, God didnt die. The death is Christs, so everyone in the OT was predestined for Hell, if you are using that in this instance. Once again, it was a predestined plan of salvation, that ALL may or may not receive based on their choices
quote:
predestined - something that could not have been prevented or changed because it had already been decided
So there is no choice by the predestined to not accept Christ. Ever. You are forced to accept it by the higher power that predestined it. So you can live how you want, and still be saved. By its very definition, it cannot be changed. Again, note the thief. he lived like Hell, but was saved because that couldnt be changed. According to Calvin
quote:
whatever your hand and your plan had predestined
Thanks for the conformation, that from the beginning of the world there was a plan for salvation in place for us all
quote:
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Again, Eves soul was in danger, therefore she wasnt predestined, or the thief didnt have to do the things required of Eve, because he was predestined. Cant have both
Posted on 10/21/24 at 7:12 pm to Harry Wong
Or Trump
Posted on 10/21/24 at 7:14 pm to AlwysATgr
Crawling with evangelists? Really? If they are supporting Trump, then their faith is flawed.
Posted on 10/21/24 at 7:16 pm to Stonehenge
quote:
Trump is not a Christian. Real Christians should not support him.
What are we going to do? Kamala told us Jesus has no place in the Democrat Party? Her words not mine, lol.
Posted on 10/21/24 at 10:16 pm to RobbBobb
quote:He had faith in Christ. That was evidence of a regenerated heart. Jesus said you must be born again and it was evident that the thief was born again on that cross. I don't see how that speaks against Calvin taught. In fact, I'd say it was consistent with what we would expect of someone who is of God's elect: they turn to Christ by faith. Repentance, faith, and good works are fruits of that regenerating act by the Spirit which only occurs in those who are predestined to eternal life.
ummmm, the thief did. He certainly never showed fruits of which the Bible claims demonstrates acceptance into the Kingdom of Heaven. All it takes is one, to show that God saves outside the barriers that Calvin taught
quote:I can't help but chuckle at the irony here. The "choice" is with the one who is adopting, not the adoptee, in this definition. You are choosing to take someone into your parental care in adoption. That's what God does with us: He chooses us to make us His sons.
You struggle with simple definitionsquote:
adopt - to take by choice into a relationship; to accept and establish in a formal or official way
quote:We certainly do have a choice to make. What the Bible teaches is that a choice is before every person to trust in Christ or not, but that doesn't mean every person can make the choice to trust in Christ.
You have no choice in predestination, The choice that is clearly defined here, is the path of salvation designed for all of us to choose or refuse
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot." -Rom. 8:7
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." - 1 Cor. 2:14
quote:The God-man, Jesus Christ, did most certainly die on the cross. It's why everlasting life is spoken of as an inheritance. Jesus is life and His death provided life for all those who trust in Him.quote:First, God didnt die. The death is Christs, so everyone in the OT was predestined for Hell, if you are using that in this instance. Once again, it was a predestined plan of salvation, that ALL may or may not receive based on their choices
more trouble with definitionsquote:
inheritance - something that is or may be inherited; to receive something from someone after they have died
Those in the OT looked forward to Christ, being saved by trusting in God's promise of salvation given to Adam and Eve in the garden. All who are saved--from the OT to the NT and until Christ returns--were saved in the same way: they were predestined to eternal life by the Father, given to the Son, and sealed by the Spirit. Paul says as much in Ephesians 1 when he says God chose us in Him from the beginning (v. 4), through Jesus Christ (v. 5) and sealed by the promise of the Holy Spirit (v. 13).
quote:You're, again, confusing the means with the ends here. God's electing grace in predestination is the end. Our trusting in Christ through faith given as a gift of regeneration is the means.quote:
predestined - something that could not have been prevented or changed because it had already been decided
So there is no choice by the predestined to not accept Christ. Ever. You are forced to accept it by the higher power that predestined it. So you can live how you want, and still be saved. By its very definition, it cannot be changed. Again, note the thief. he lived like Hell, but was saved because that couldnt be changed. According to Calvin
And when you use the word "forced", I think you're not thinking rightly about what happens in salvation. If God left us to our own devices, original sin would keep us from ever trusting in Christ because our natures desire what is contrary to God. We want to hate God and reject His offer of salvation; He isn't forcing us to reject it. And when we are saved, He isn't forcing us to believe, either, as if we desperately wanted to reject Christ but the Father force-feeds Him to us. Instead, He changes our very desires (the new birth), raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life, so that where we once actually hated Christ, we now love Him and see His beauty. We are given new desires, a "heart of flesh" instead of our "heart of stone" (Ez. 36:26). God changes our magnetic poles so that instead of pushing away from God, we naturally gravitate toward Him.
quote:Yes, some of us are planned for salvation and others of us are planned to not be saved. That's the nature of predestination: some are chosen and others are not.
Thanks for the conformation, that from the beginning of the world there was a plan for salvation in place for us all
quote:God most certainly does desire in one sense that all men would come to a saving faith in Christ and have eternal life, and yet He wills (decrees) that not all men are saved. We can take that one of two ways: either God is helpless to do what He desires, or, for a greater purpose, He decrees that some are saved while others are not, and He powerfully and sovereignly accomplishes all His holy will.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all
quote:You're making a problem where one doesn't exist. If we continue in the faith until the end, it is a sign that we are truly saved, because those who go out from us (reject the truth after claiming to have believed it) prove that they were not truly of us (1 John 2:19).quote:Again, Eves soul was in danger, therefore she wasnt predestined, or the thief didnt have to do the things required of Eve, because he was predestined. Cant have both
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Regarding Eve, the passage in 1 Tim. 2 is talking about all women, not just Eve, though Paul uses Eve as an example.
What you keep doing is confusing the human understanding with the divine understanding. Predestination speaks of salvation from God's perspective because only He knows who is saved and who isn't. From our perspective, we don't know who is saved, and so we need to warn ourselves of the danger of damnation if we do not trust in Christ. We need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, examining ourselves, our faith, and our works to see if we are truly seeking Christ or if we are trusting in something else, which only leads to everlasting death. The warning is for our weakness, but if we are predestined, then God will keep us until the end. The same is true for the thief on the cross, whom God saved at the last moment of his life because he was chosen before the foundation of the world.
This post was edited on 10/22/24 at 12:02 am
Posted on 10/21/24 at 11:38 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
What you keep doing is confusing the human understanding with the divine understanding.
What you guys keep doing is allowing Calvin to get away with claiming divine understanding. Same thing Catholics do for the Pope
We only have human understanding. No man can speak for God, nor his understanding. He said he came to save ALL mankind, and Calvin cant just simply explain that away
quote:
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
quote:
I Timothy 2:3-6
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all.
quote:
John 1:6-9
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
quote:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
quote:
Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
quote:
Romans 5:18
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
quote:
Romans 10:11-13
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
quote:
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
quote:
John 3 :16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:16 is the catch all. He clearly uses the term "the world". Not the select, not the chosen, not predestined. Most Bible references to the world are not good.
* Love not the world
* be not conformed to this world
* shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul
* In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world
* worldly lusts
* whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
* is not of the Father, but is of the world
* whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world
* If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
* having escaped the corruption that is in the world
For God so loved the world . . . . that the world through him might be saved.
The World
Posted on 10/22/24 at 12:24 am to RobbBobb
quote:I agree with you, however we can know what God has revealed about Himself and His will in His word. We know that God elects. We know He does so because He loves His elect. We know He is sovereign in His saving work. We do not know who He elects.
What you guys keep doing is allowing Calvin to get away with claiming divine understanding. Same thing Catholics do for the Pope
We only have human understanding. No man can speak for God, nor his understanding.
He has revealed that man cannot come unless God draws him because man is dead in his sins (dead men cannot respond on their own). We must be born again by the Spirit of God before we can be saved, and if we must be born again and made alive, then we must rely entirely on God's vivifying work in us to make that happen. Since we cannot respond unless God makes us alive, it requires God to first choose us to make us alive (predestination); God doesn't need to look into time to see a people who will not respond without His saving regenerating work in the first place.
quote:He didn't say He will save all mankind. God shows mercy on whom He shows mercy, meaning that He doesn't choose to show mercy on some (Rom. 9:14-18)
He said he came to save ALL mankind, and Calvin cant just simply explain that away
The fact of the matter is that everyone limits the atonement of Jesus Christ: the Arminian (you) limits Christ in His power and efficacy because Jesus doesn't actually save anyone--He only makes it possible for people to be saved--whereas the Calvinist (me) limits the atonement in its scope--Jesus died to save only His elect from within the whole world, made up of all nations, tribes, and tongues.
Jesus did come to save the world: His elect from throughout the entire world. He did not come to save every single person within the world.
quote:Yes, God does love the world that He sent His only Son for salvation. However, only those who have been born again can actually believe. You really need to read the first 15 verses of John 3 before stopping on verse 16.
John 3:16 is the catch all. He clearly uses the term "the world". Not the select, not the chosen, not predestined. Most Bible references to the world are not good.
quote:Again, God does love the world, and yet not every single person in the world is chosen to be saved.
* Love not the world
* be not conformed to this world
* shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul
* In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world
* worldly lusts
* whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
* is not of the Father, but is of the world
* whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world
* If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
* having escaped the corruption that is in the world
For God so loved the world . . . . that the world through him might be saved.
The World
The world is a large group of people, and "whoever believes" is a subset of those within the world. Jesus didn't die to save everyone in the world, but only those who believe, and verse 3 tells us that one must be born again before he can even believe. How does one contribute to his own conception and birth? He doesn't. It happens to him. Likewise, being raised from spiritual death or being born again spiritually is a work of God that He does to us, not a work we do to ourselves.
John 10 teaches this wonderfully. Jesus died for His sheep. His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. Those who are not His sheep will reject Him. Jesus has a people that belong to Him that know Him because He has made them His.
Posted on 10/22/24 at 12:24 am to RobbBobb
Duplicate post
This post was edited on 10/22/24 at 12:25 am
Posted on 10/22/24 at 3:16 pm to Stonehenge
Trump is protected by God but you do you 
Posted on 10/22/24 at 9:00 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
the Arminian (you) limits Christ in His power and efficacy because Jesus doesn't actually save anyone
I'm not sure where you got this from my posts
quote:
His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. Those who are not His sheep will reject Him.
ehhhh, John 10 also clearly says
quote:
I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring
Notice the obvious omission of "my sheep" here, after the entire chapter speaks of his sheep? Because he has other sheep, that he is also bringing. Which means ALL of his sheep are not pre-selected. Also in John 10
quote:
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
Again no mention of chosen, select, or predetermined. "Any man", which is then followed up with the "other sheep I have" comment. And when you research the Hebrew word used for "other" it relates to Matthew 5:39, Matthew 12:13, John 21:8, and 1 Corinthians 14:29. Each verse demonstrates that the meaning of "other" as being equal to, or the same as the original
Posted on 11/4/24 at 10:00 am to RobbBobb
quote:I assume you take the typical Arminian position that Jesus died to make salvation possible for all mankind but not to save a specific group of people chosen by God for that salvation from before the world was created. Am I wrong about that?
I'm not sure where you got this from my posts
quote:I don't see how you get that from the text.
ehhhh, John 10 also clearly saysquote:
I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring
Notice the obvious omission of "my sheep" here, after the entire chapter speaks of his sheep? Because he has other sheep, that he is also bringing. Which means ALL of his sheep are not pre-selected.
As a Calvinist, I see Jesus talking about His sheep being specified as the sheep of Israel and the sheep of the Gentiles, all part of His one flock but coming from two folds.
Jesus died to save His people, both of Israel--whom He came to witness to first--and of the Gentiles. One "Church" made up of Jews and Greeks (Gentiles). One Church that was foreknown (loved beforehand), predestined, called, justified, and glorified. (Rom. 8:29-30)
quote:The offer of the gospel is free and open to every person. John 3:16 is another example of this. The offer doesn't speak to one's ability to receive it, only the generosity of the offer, itself.
Also in John 10quote:
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
Again no mention of chosen, select, or predetermined. "Any man", which is then followed up with the "other sheep I have" comment. And when you research the Hebrew word used for "other" it relates to Matthew 5:39, Matthew 12:13, John 21:8, and 1 Corinthians 14:29. Each verse demonstrates that the meaning of "other" as being equal to, or the same as the original
Yes, if anyone enters through Christ, he will be saved. Yes, if any person believes in the Son of God, he will be saved. If anyone receives Christ by faith, he will be saved.
That is not the question, because even the Calvinist agrees with that.
The question is "who can enter?" or rather, "who can believe?"
Only those who have been "born again" can enter or believe, and not everyone is born again. No man can make himself born again, either.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 10:05 am to MemphisGuy
The only gentile in the Old Testament annointed by God, king Cyrus. Not a sweet guy.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 10:08 am to jeffsdad
It’s very clear there there is a candidate on God’s side on one on the devil’s - any Christian that votes for her will be judged harshly for sinning against the kingdom of god.
This post was edited on 11/4/24 at 10:09 am
Posted on 11/4/24 at 10:18 am to NashvilleTider
Yeah, I don’t see things that way, but did vote for Trump. I think the Lord wants most of our energy showing people Jesus. Non-political. Politics is ok but very difficult to stay in line with His teachings. Not impossible, but very difficult.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 1:57 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I spent a lot of time explaining my position a few days ago in another thread
Hey friend. Which thread? I’m having a real life discussion, with friends, about the millions of Christians that don’t vote.
Posted on 11/4/24 at 2:06 pm to Prodigal Son
quote:
Hey friend. Which thread? I’m having a real life discussion, with friends, about the millions of Christians that don’t vote.
Here you go
I'll say from the outset that I get why so many Christians will vote for Trump and I'm extremely sympathetic as someone who voted for him twice before. Just a recent change of convictions is preventing me from doing it a third time but I'm not condemning anyone for voting for him
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