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re: Looking at young Rittenhouse from another Angle

Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:06 pm to
Posted by TS1926
Alabama
Member since Jan 2020
8034 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:06 pm to
quote:

FACTUALLY, he would still have been acting in self defense vis-a-vis Molotov guy, but LEGALLY he might not have access to that justification/defense ... because he was LEGALLY the initial aggressor.


I'm certain all of the rioter witnesses will say young Kyle was pointing the weapon at them before all of this started. That's what they always say right? Kyle and his alibies will say he absolutely did not point the weapon until he was in peril.
I suppose it comes down to who is more believable as a witness and whatever video evidence is available. Most video evidence we've seen shows young Kyle retreating and being chased and attacked.
Posted by Turbeauxdog
Member since Aug 2004
24273 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:07 pm to
Hank creates some retarded contrarian fan fiction to argue against his view of the board’s consensus , then claims intellectual superiority when laughed at.

Rinse

Repeat
Posted by LNCHBOX
70448
Member since Jun 2009
89060 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:07 pm to
quote:

but I can certainly extrapolate broad concepts from the law of jurisdictions with which I AM familiar ... at least enough to ask the right questions.


Doesn't seem to be the case so far.
quote:

At least half of legal analysis is recognizing, formulating and then asking the right questions.

You are a very combative fellow.


You're shitposting.
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:10 pm to
quote:


You're shitposting

Yep

This Thread is 100% about him pissing people off on purpose based on nothing. He literally sat there thinking to himself how he could f*** with the board over something patently obvious. This is why Hank is hated and why he deserves to be hated
Posted by deathvalleytiger10
Member since Sep 2009
9278 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:11 pm to
Interesting points Aggie.

Question- In states where the shooter might be deemed the aggressor in your scenario, when does that end?

Does he lose his rights to protect himself if the initial encounter ends and he is in the act of retreating and has disengaged the other person?
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:11 pm to
quote:

quote:

If he was standing at the property boundary and pointing his weapon at them BEFORE the starting swinging pipes, it leads to the question presented in the OP.
You've now added this which was not part of the OP
You are mistaken. From the OP:
quote:

"Deadly force" is usually defined to include threatening the use of ACTUAL deadly force. If young Rittenhouse used that sort of "implied" deadly force to defend the car lot, he might be considered the initial aggressor, even if Molotov guy was the first to actually commit a PHYSICAL use of deadly force.
Maybe I was speaking legalese. Occupational hazard.
quote:

Did you intend to suggest he'd have needed to actually do something proactive with the firearm to be seen as the aggressor
Yes.
quote:

or merely have it there since potentially he could not defend another's property?
Slightly different question, because ownership governs whether he had the RIGHT to use "deadly force" (whether actual or "implied") in defending the property.

If he owned the property, he would arguably be justified in pointing the weapon and saying "stay away from this car lot." If he did NOT own the car lot, the argument that he had a such a legal justification is MUCH weaker.
Posted by cadillacattack
the ATL
Member since May 2020
10632 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:12 pm to
quote:

Again, I have not researched Wisconsin law on this point, and I would welcome input from anyone familiar with it


Posted by Godfather1
What WAS St George, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2006
88904 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:12 pm to
quote:

Additionally, one of those aggressors may have been holding a handgun


The tool that lost half of his arm WAS holding a pistol.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:13 pm to
quote:

quote:

He was only in the car lot because Mr.ShootMeN**ga! chased him there while trying to set the kid on fire.
I hadn't even seen that one. Hank's gonna need a minute to come up with any type of response to that
The reports that I have seen indicate that young Kyle was specifically defending THAT car lot.

If that is not the case, the analysis obviously changes.
Posted by boomtown143
Member since May 2019
9407 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:15 pm to


you are the biggest POS on this board.
Posted by LNCHBOX
70448
Member since Jun 2009
89060 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:16 pm to
quote:

The reports that I have seen indicate that young Kyle was specifically defending THAT car lot.



Well, video evidence says otherwise.
quote:

If that is not the case, the analysis obviously changes.


Why not just say it has changed since it's clear as day even though it was night?
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:17 pm to
quote:

The Joe Horn case shows how wrong you are.
Not at all. The Grand Jury no-billed Horn because they believed (or nullified) that he was in his own yard.
quote:

Horn, to dispatcher: "I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice."
It was not a question of the law, but rather a question of applying the law to the facts ... as the Grand Jury saw them.

Personally, I am glad the old fellow ventilated those punks. But let's not get off track.
Posted by BlackHelicopterPilot
Top secret lab
Member since Feb 2004
52841 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:19 pm to
quote:

The reports that I have seen indicate that young Kyle was specifically defending THAT car lot.


"The reports I have seen indicate that Sandman stood in the way of that poor Indian dude and smugly impeded the peaceful redskin's walk"

Reports can be wrong...usually skewed in one direction.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:21 pm to
quote:

Are you seriously trying to argue that being armed makes him the initial aggressor?
No. I have clarified this several times.

If the DA wants to prosecute this kid, he will have to find a way to negate the justification of "self-defense." I am exploring how the DA might attempt to do that.
Posted by Open Your Eyes
Member since Nov 2012
10586 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:21 pm to
quote:

let's assume that Wisconsin law is similar


quote:

Set aside the self-defense question for a moment,


More hypotheticals from the shitty lawyer that thinks the mccloskeys destroyed their own gate.
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:22 pm to
quote:

DA wants to prosecute this kid, he will have to find a way to negate the justification of "self-defense." I am exploring how the DA might attempt to do that


You are trolling your arse off. There is no justification for charging this kid with murder. None zero zilch nada. He's being charged because the da is a Democrat. That is the sum total of why he's being charged and you know it. And by the way he's going to walk
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:23 pm to
quote:

quote:

From your own link
A person who was the initial aggressor cannot claim self-defense as a justification unless they abandon the combat or the other party has responded with excessive force.
YES, which is why I said that this is the argument I would present if I were representing young Rittenhouse.

If I were the DA, I would argue that he did NOT disengage and that the entire sequence of events constituted a single confrontation.
Posted by NPComb
Member since Jan 2019
28464 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:25 pm to
So if some one is chasing me and attempts to murder me and misses and then attempts to keep chasing me, I am to assume he’s not out to hurt me anymore and all of a sudden I am the agressor?


Gtfo
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:25 pm to
quote:

You're shitposting.
You really are an angry little fellow
Posted by LNCHBOX
70448
Member since Jun 2009
89060 posts
Posted on 8/26/20 at 3:25 pm to
quote:

You really are an angry little fellow



At some point you'll try to make an actual point, yes?
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