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re: Life In A Socialized System
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:46 am to Ag Zwin
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:46 am to Ag Zwin
quote:
OK. Now subtract out the shitpile of money gushing out of the North Sea. Their government has been prudent by stashing that wealth instead of spending it like drunken sailors. That wealth has almost nothing to do with individual entrepreneurship, and everything to do with luck (oil) and fiscal discipline at the federal level.
That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
The OP is talking about life in a socialized system, using an example of healthcare in Norway. No one had a problem with the OP until I pointed out the discrepancy in infant mortality.
I was asked to look at demographics, and sure enough, they're wealthier than us - regardless of how they got that way. Is that a factor in healthcare outcomes, or not?
1
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:48 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
Where are you seeing these numbers?
Google.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:49 am to Boatshoes
I saw a flier in my neighborhood this week for a socialism conference in Chicago this summer. It was equal parts comical and terrifying.
It wasn't very clear what they'll be doing for three days, but they used these photos, so I guess a lot of this.
ETA: LINK for you interested comrades.
It wasn't very clear what they'll be doing for three days, but they used these photos, so I guess a lot of this.
ETA: LINK for you interested comrades.
This post was edited on 5/25/18 at 11:52 am
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:51 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
So helpful. Could have at least said you were looking at the median. First two articles I saw did not have that. Don't have to be an arse.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:54 am to cokebottleag
quote:
So you believe that the lower amount of testing is the primary factor for the mortality rate?
Why the frick do you keep jumping to conclusions?
Maybe the CARE is better. Maybe a midwifes assisting with natural childbirth has better outcomes than an OB/GYN putting the woman on her back to give birth. Sure, the doctor is right there to handle complications, but maybe having her on her back causes more complications to have to respond to.
Maybe not.
But the fact is that the woman in the OP was freaking out about how they do it there, without realizing that they have better outcomes.
It could just be that they're doing it better - in that "socialized system".
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:55 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
You cited a wealth statistic to make the case they are smarter than us. You introduced it as a factor, and I pointed out the lack of correlation (much less causality) between wealth and political/economic models in a place where oil is so pervasive. Saudi Arabia has similar per capita wealth. Are they paragons to be emulated?
quote:
I was asked to look at demographics, and sure enough, they're wealthier than us
Wow. You just proved so many of my points about simplistic and biased statistical analysis.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:56 am to GoCrazyAuburn
quote:
Don't have to be an arse.
Sorry, it's just that this thread is full of arse. I"m being attacked over the OP's position.
Did any of the sites you saw show that that wealth per capita in Norway is lower than in the US?
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:57 am to Ag Zwin
quote:
Ag Zwin
Let's compare the wealth statistics on comparable demographics next! That will settle this debate.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:59 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
Sorry, it's just that this thread is full of arse. I"m being attacked over the OP's position.
quote:
Did any of the sites you saw show that that wealth per capita in Norway is lower than in the US?
Their mean is lower than ours. The truth of the matter is that our demographics play a huge role in our median being so low.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 12:04 pm to Ag Zwin
quote:
You cited a wealth statistic to make the case they are smarter than us.
Jesus, you just can't seem to stay on track. It was a sarcastic joke, hence, "skilz". This board is obsessed with wealth being a factor of intelligence (which I largely disagree with).
quote:
Are they paragons to be emulated?
There you go again, I have not advocated emulating ANYONE.
quote:
wealth and political/economic models in a place where oil is so pervasive.
You mean like Louisiana?
quote:
You just proved so many of my points about simplistic and biased statistical analysis.
You're not making points, you're just jumping to conclusions.
The woman in the OP was freaked out by childbirth in Norway, turns out they have better outcomes in that "solcialized system". That's my point, and that's about the only thing you haven't addressed.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 12:10 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
Sorry, it's just that this thread is full of arse. I"m being attacked over the OP's position.
Did any of the sites you saw show that that wealth per capita in Norway is lower than in the US?
You're not being attacked because of your position. You are being challenged because you use simplistic statistics to legitimize a political point of view.
You also say the woman in the OP was "freaking out" about the midwife thing. That phrasing is a typical trick to undermine positions. She was not "freaking out". She was expressing that it was indeed surprising, but that is a far cry (and significantly lighter connotation) than "freaking out".
You also fail with the wealth stat YOU introduced. You have repeatedly cited per capita wealth as an inferred indicator of either intelligence or a superior approach to our system. You completely ignore things like racial heterogeneity, inherited social status (and, yes, I am including the fact that blacks started in our system with nothing in their pocket and a whole lot of racism in the 1860's), immigration, population density, and the overall "achievement" mindset of Americans vs. "collective good" mindset of Scandinavians. Like many say, there is a lot to say for living a safe, modest life in a place like that. Get back to me when that culture also produces anything like the innovation, wealth, and philanthropy of the US.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 12:12 pm to Ag Zwin
quote:
People see what they want to see.
True... never more concisely stated than this statement:
There are 3 different kind of liars...
1) Liars..
2) Dang Liars...
3) Statisticians..
I would also add (without sounding too philosophical... ) that people only see what they can see...
Posted on 5/25/18 at 12:18 pm to Boatshoes
Wow
Posted on 5/25/18 at 12:18 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:2015
And yet the infant mortality rate in Norway is nearly half that of the US at 3.5 and 6.2 respectively. S. Korea is at 4.2.
I know, I know, you can't compare health outcomes with health care systems, lifestyle choices and all...
African American IMR = 11.7
White IMR = 4.8
Hispanic IMR = 5.2
AA women are at a higher risk of having premature babies with a lower chance of survival ( even middle class black women suffer from it)
Posted on 5/25/18 at 12:37 pm to joeyb147
quote:
White IMR = 4.8
Norway and SK have lower rates of IM than even our white women.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 1:03 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:not every country counts IMR the same
Norway and SK have lower rates of IM than even our white women.
I wonder what the criteria are for these as the US is pretty strict on how it defines IMR
Even the WHO says this among developed countries, mortality rates may reflect differences in the definitions used for reporting births, such as cut-offs for registering live births and birth weight.
Even more from the WHO
quote:
European countries have adopted a variety of different practices for stillbirth and live birth registration, and this limits the comparative value of perinatal mortality as an index of health care.4 Also, in countries where legal abortion is used as a form of birth control, the registration of stillbirths, live births and neonatal deaths has a different meaning from those countries where abortion is uncommon or illegal.5 It has also been common practice in several countries (e.g. Belgium, France, Spain) to register as live births only those infants who survived for a specified period beyond birth. Those who did not survive were placed in a category often known as “false stillbirths” or they were completely ignored for registration purposes.
From the British Journal of OBGYN
quote:
The published perinatal mortality rates ranged from 5.4 per 1000 total births in Sweden and Finland to9.7 in Greece and Northern Ireland. The indirect adjustment method showed that some countries apply cutoffpoints for registration or publication of perinatal mortality which may raise the perinatal mortality rate by up to17% above the most commonly used threshold for including live and stillbirths. The direct adjustment methodshowed that a common lower limit of 1000g for birthweight or 28 weeks for gestational age would reduce theperinatal mortality rate, but by a differing extent ranging from 14% to 40%. Both adjustment methods reducedthe contrast between the countries’ perinatal mortality rates, and changed their rank order.
quote:
These quantitative results confirm that international differences in countries’ published perinatalmortality rates partly reflect differences between countries’ criteria for registration and publication of perinataldeaths.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 8:43 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
I keep suggesting a conclusion because you are providing none.
Midwives are available in the US too. My sister was born using one. Research shows midwife assisted hospital birth is lowest infant mortality rate in US
So no single payer necessary.
Perhaps the solution is better education, not forcing a single system on everyone.
And I’m trying to have a discussion. Go continue your drive by trolling if that’s all you care to do.
Midwives are available in the US too. My sister was born using one. Research shows midwife assisted hospital birth is lowest infant mortality rate in US
So no single payer necessary.
Perhaps the solution is better education, not forcing a single system on everyone.
And I’m trying to have a discussion. Go continue your drive by trolling if that’s all you care to do.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 9:48 pm to TheHarahanian
quote:
quote:
Everyone gets a pension; full-time childcare is $350 a month, at the most; medical care is basically free. You don’t even have to worry about paying for college! It cost me $200 in enrollment fees to get a Masters in English...
In the long term this isn’t sustainable unless you have earners who are willing to sacrifice their wealth, and not evade the taxation or leave the system. Look at Greece especially for an example that failed.
Norway is a bit different. Trillion dollar fund from oil fields all stashed away. Immigration into Norway is tough. Small population. From the link, they don't spend much on health care.
Posted on 5/25/18 at 11:00 pm to Boatshoes
No thanks..... never will replace capitalism unless Amazon takes over the world! 
Posted on 5/26/18 at 12:48 am to Boatshoes
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