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re: Is an anarchist on the left or right of the political spectrum?
Posted on 4/24/19 at 1:38 pm to Zach
Posted on 4/24/19 at 1:38 pm to Zach
quote:
What is the distinction between ultra-nationalism, moderate nationalism and light nationalism?
I'd argue that there has to be a national myth, based on the notion that one state has priority over others, and to the detriment of other peoples. This is exemplified in Germany with "lebensraum" and the notion of that there would be a thousand-year Reich. In Italy there was the notion that the Roman Empire would be rebuilt, and Italy would again be the center of the world. The Iron Guard developed an idea that they would be guided by their "big sister" France, as Francophilia was strong in the country since French diplomacy helped the Romanians achieve independence. In each version though, it was about a specific group of people rising up above others, and in many cases subjugating others.
The national myth idea also relies on a notion of weaponized nostalgia, by pretending that the problems of the nation, whatever they are, are due to the entrance of peoples who aren't bound to the soil, like the "true" peoples are. Again, this was seen in pretty much every version of fascism.
The easiest contrast to make is the degree to which Stalin quashed nationalist movements in the USSR, and had severe "de-nationalialization" programs for groups he thought were too committed to their nations cause.
quote:
Nationalism is an aspect of every nation. Nationalism is not a meaningless term. Fascism is meaningless. Hitler was a leftist. He wanted massive govt control over individual freedom. But Hitler is bad so we call him a 'fascist.'
Again, I've defined nationalism quite narrowly, as in the ethnonationalism that developed after the Peace of Westphalia, where the idea developed, in contrast to the imperial systems of the time, that there should be one nation, with one language, and one religion or one sect of a religion. The imperial system before the first WW allowed a great deal of regional autonomy, though after the revolutions of 1848, you saw massive centralization efforts through education (a process called normalization) which saw the standardization of many Romantic languages. These reforms were so uneven that there were still people speaking Breton in France during the first WW, and there came large dialect gaps in places in Italy and Germany (as the Bavarian dialect of German is nearly unintelligible to modern Standard German).
This was essentially the guiding light of the nationalists in the 20th century, and why they determined nationality based on ethnicity alone. Allowing religious freedom undermined the Westphalian notion to a degree they couldn't allow.
quote:
You just proved that the term has no meaning.
No. The term reactionary in the 1920's was developed in response to the revolutionary fervor in Russia and Germany. It has a specific history, which for some reason you are refusing to accept.
quote:
Leftists have the unifying value system of egalitarianism which is the opposite of freedom.
Fascists were anti-egalitarian in the most explicit form you can be anti-egalitarian, which was by denying the rights under the law of minority interests. They also believed that society would be naturally unequal and the strong were the only ones fit to rule.
quote:
The word 'conservative' in those days did not mean 'limited govt and personal freedom'. It meant 'opposed to change.'
It took on different meanings in different countries. In England, it developed in an interesting way, as the landed gentry opposed the new industrial class. Eventually the conservatives promoted free trade and mostly laissez-faire economic programs, as the industrial class discovered they could gain the powers of the old aristocracy by buying peerages and estates. They continued this economic program until the Keynesian compromises after the second WW, a consensus known as Butskellism. Just an interesting aside.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 1:44 pm to Zach
quote:
The people who riot calling themselves 'anarchists' are left wing. It's just cooler than calling yourself a communist.
Anarchy simply = absence of law. The best example of anarchy in the US was the pioneers moving west. There was no statehood, no jurisdiction for sheriffs or courts. However, this did not result in people murdering, robbing and raping at random. Settlers has guns, manners and religious faith.
If your scale of ideology is based on 'Govt control over the individual vs. Freedom and self reliance, then anarchy is extreme right wing. It is the opposite of totalitarianism which is left wing.
Excellent synopsis



Posted on 4/24/19 at 1:48 pm to beaverfever

IMHO:
Top Right is fascist/nationalist(isolationist)
Bottom Right is Anarchist
Top Left is Communist
And bottom left is Utopianism, but in reality tribalism which is where a lot of the idiots on the left exist. Problem is they need government to force collectivism.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 1:52 pm to bamagreycoat
quote:
Anarchy as I understand it to be is chaos.
A lot of people have the same mistaken idea. Here is an analogy to make a distinction.
Suppose there is a storm that knocks out the traffic light at an extremely busy intersection. The light = the law. Now, there is no law.
Do cars go crashing into each other? No, that would be chaos.
Drivers realize there is no law and proceed by observing others. They slow down and pass through after eye contact with other drivers.
That is anarchy.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 2:02 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
I'd argue that both versions of anarchism require strong state, because I don't see how in either situation there wouldn't be a return to a tribal power dynamic, or what is stopping one individual from gaining too much power (such as feudalism) or one group gaining too much power (as in tribalism).
Hoppe talks about this in his books. You are seeing it very similarly I believe.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 2:04 pm to MrCarton
I read the first couple of chapters of Hoppe and I was annoyed how much I was vibing with him. I'll finish it soon. You were right in that he and I see a lot of things eye to eye.
The history of power dynamics also makes me want to read up on anthropological takes on how power developed in tribal societies. I've read some, like in The Chalice and the Blade, but there was an implicit Utopian notion in that book that annoyed me. I want something dry as hell and not couched in a response to state power currently.
The history of power dynamics also makes me want to read up on anthropological takes on how power developed in tribal societies. I've read some, like in The Chalice and the Blade, but there was an implicit Utopian notion in that book that annoyed me. I want something dry as hell and not couched in a response to state power currently.
This post was edited on 4/24/19 at 2:07 pm
Posted on 4/24/19 at 2:05 pm to MrCarton
quote:
Even if this was true, that doesn't support the horseshoe theory.
Instead of simply being a contrarian, prove me wrong.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 2:06 pm to crazy4lsu
Even people who dislike him have to admit he's very interesting haha. Enjoy sir
Posted on 4/24/19 at 2:08 pm to CoachChappy
quote:
Instead of simply being a contrarian, prove me wrong.
You didn't even counter my original point though. Left and right are ideological opposites. They don't connect at the ends. It doesn't matter if you think the "end results are the same" (an interesting conclusion tbh).
That's like saying you can die of heat stroke or hypothermia, so they are basically the same. It's such a broad observation that it's basically meaningless.
This post was edited on 4/24/19 at 2:09 pm
Posted on 4/24/19 at 2:08 pm to weagle99
I think we need a calculus textbook to answer this question.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 2:16 pm to crazy4lsu
I'm going to just quote your first sentence in each paragraph to save band width.
Your first paragraph just describes human nature throughout history. It is not a distinction between degrees of nationalism. The Germans, the Soviets, the Romans, etc. all believed in their superiority because they could back it up...till they couldn't. Twas always thus. Still is. The 'nostalgia' point certainly applies to France. They still base their self esteem on Napoleon.
Your definition is arbitrary. Nationalism is as old as the concept of 'the state.' Us vs. Them. It doesn't matter if the 'nation' is a city like Athens or an empire like Rome. All nations had majorities in ethnicity, language, religion but they all had minorities who still part of the nation.
I accept that it is a word. It has no meaning in modern ideological discussion. What you describe is simply a rejection of the SQ. I've already explained that.
All totalitarian states have hierarchies and so do free states. The difference is that left assumes power through appeal to the emotion of envy and then creates the hierarchy to their benefit. The USSR fomented the Marxist revolution on equality. There were a lot of very rich people in the USSR. The rulers. And there were a lot of oppressed minorities in the USSR. All leftist govts promise equality. They don't actually deliver it. They never have. Equality is unnatural.
Not only an interesting aside but it reminded me of Toffler's book '3rd Wave'. He takes the transition from agriculture (1st wave) to industrial (2nd) to modern info tech (3rd) and explains how there was resistance in each wave.
IE, in 1880 farmer Bob didn't trust those dang horseless carriages.
In 1980 Aunt Minnie didn't see any need for a computer thing.
It's been an enjoyable discussion, crazy, but I gotta go for the day.
quote:
I'd argue that there has to be a national myth, based on the notion that one state has priority over others,
Your first paragraph just describes human nature throughout history. It is not a distinction between degrees of nationalism. The Germans, the Soviets, the Romans, etc. all believed in their superiority because they could back it up...till they couldn't. Twas always thus. Still is. The 'nostalgia' point certainly applies to France. They still base their self esteem on Napoleon.
quote:
Again, I've defined nationalism quite narrowly, as in the ethnonationalism that developed after the Peace of Westphalia,
Your definition is arbitrary. Nationalism is as old as the concept of 'the state.' Us vs. Them. It doesn't matter if the 'nation' is a city like Athens or an empire like Rome. All nations had majorities in ethnicity, language, religion but they all had minorities who still part of the nation.
quote:
No. The term reactionary in the 1920's was developed in response to the revolutionary fervor in Russia and Germany. It has a specific history, which for some reason you are refusing to accept.
I accept that it is a word. It has no meaning in modern ideological discussion. What you describe is simply a rejection of the SQ. I've already explained that.
quote:
Fascists were anti-egalitarian in the most explicit form you can be anti-egalitarian, which was by denying the rights under the law of minority interests. They also believed that society would be naturally unequal and the strong were the only ones fit to rule.
All totalitarian states have hierarchies and so do free states. The difference is that left assumes power through appeal to the emotion of envy and then creates the hierarchy to their benefit. The USSR fomented the Marxist revolution on equality. There were a lot of very rich people in the USSR. The rulers. And there were a lot of oppressed minorities in the USSR. All leftist govts promise equality. They don't actually deliver it. They never have. Equality is unnatural.
quote:
It took on different meanings in different countries. In England, it developed in an interesting way, as the landed gentry opposed the new industrial class. Eventually the conservatives promoted free trade and mostly laissez-faire economic programs, as the industrial class discovered they could gain the powers of the old aristocracy by buying peerages and estates. They continued this economic program until the Keynesian compromises after the second WW, a consensus known as Butskellism. Just an interesting aside.
Not only an interesting aside but it reminded me of Toffler's book '3rd Wave'. He takes the transition from agriculture (1st wave) to industrial (2nd) to modern info tech (3rd) and explains how there was resistance in each wave.
IE, in 1880 farmer Bob didn't trust those dang horseless carriages.
In 1980 Aunt Minnie didn't see any need for a computer thing.
It's been an enjoyable discussion, crazy, but I gotta go for the day.

Posted on 4/24/19 at 2:26 pm to MrCarton
I'll maybe start a thread on it when I finish. His training is reminiscent of Heideggerian and Husserlian phenomenology (and therefore Hegel), which is maybe a strain he got from Habermas, but was also highly evident in the existentialists and even the Frankfurt School. He could have gotten that method from lots of people and places. The Heideggerian method is much more influential than the Marxist method, as the dialectical explanations have fallen out of favor (regardless of what Jordan Peterson says) in favor of ones in which we are responding to phenomena. Heidegger is underrated as a political thinker, mainly because of his association with the Nazi party.
I might pair him with Hannah Arendt, who was amazingly thoughtful about power and its applications. Maybe also pair it with Truth and Method by Hans-Georg Gadamer, both of whom were also influenced by Heidegger and Husserl.
I might pair him with Hannah Arendt, who was amazingly thoughtful about power and its applications. Maybe also pair it with Truth and Method by Hans-Georg Gadamer, both of whom were also influenced by Heidegger and Husserl.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 2:33 pm to Zach
quote:
It is not a distinction between degrees of nationalism.
It is when you are pairing it against the imperial systems, which had their own myths, but not ones based on ethnicity, race, genetics or notions of "land."
quote:
Nationalism is as old as the concept of 'the state.'
I've said repeatedly that I'm referring to the ethnonationalism that appeared after the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. It's a specific term with a specific history. Don't conflate nationalism as a political term with the broader notion of loving one's land. They are two different, distinct things. There is quite a bit of difference between American civic nationalism and ethnonationalism, as the former is inclusive while the latter is exclusive.
quote:
All nations had majorities in ethnicity, language, religion but they all had minorities who still part of the nation.
Athens and Rome weren't nations in the modern political sense. That ethnonationalism denies minorities rights and participation by virtue of their ethnicity alone makes it distinct, and a function of Cartesian modernism, and not something from antiquity.
quote:
All totalitarian states have hierarchies and so do free states
You said leftists believe in egalitarianism. The fascists were explicitly anti-egalitarianism, in both theory in practice. That discounts the notion they were leftists.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 2:37 pm to MrCarton
quote:
It doesn't matter if you think the "end results are the same" (an interesting conclusion tbh).
It's also only true if you are being willfully ignorant about how each employs political economy, institutions, and rhetoric. There is a world of meaningful differences that you can wash away by suggesting they end up at the same result. The details are always important. There is no one who studies authoritarian state structures who would suggest that fascism and communism have the "same result." Spain and Portugal, the longest running fascist states to my recall, are meaningfully different from Russia and the Yugoslav republics. Spain is meaningfully different from Italy, another former fascist state. There is also a meaningful difference between the junta states that developed in South America and communist and fascist dictatorships. The difference is worth studying and understanding too.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 3:01 pm to Zach
quote:
If your scale of ideology is based on 'Govt control over the individual vs. Freedom and self reliance, then anarchy is extreme right wing. It is the opposite of totalitarianism which is left wing.
Who uses this as their metric

Posted on 4/24/19 at 3:15 pm to crazy4lsu
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 3:17 pm to crazy4lsu
Please do start a thread when you're done. That would be awesome.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 3:18 pm to weagle99
right.
But, most anarchists are too stupid to realize they support communism and vote lefty.
But, most anarchists are too stupid to realize they support communism and vote lefty.
Posted on 4/24/19 at 3:19 pm to bmy
quote:
Who uses this as their metric
People smarter than you.
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