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re: Interesting new research data on guns in America
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:32 am to onmymedicalgrind
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:32 am to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
So your maps show that poor people don't commit more crimes
They are not "my" maps. They are raw data collection maps.
They show that there are definite areas of low black and Hispanic population that still have high poverty that do not have the same high murder rates with firearms. If we were to use your statement "Exactly. Which is why I said you can point to race, but you can just as easily point to socioeconomics." referring to this post
quote:
Or perhaps they are poor because they are violent and incapable of participating in society. This is the problem with correlation "studies". They tell you nothing about the cause.
One would expect all areas of low socioeconomic status to have similar firearm murder rates. That is simply not true. So you cannot use the data from the OP to "just as easily point to socioeconomics" as a cause for the variance in firearms murders.
1
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:35 am to Bleeding purple
I'm not saying there was no racism against other races or cultures. But it wasn't on the same level. And there wasn't the guilt that America had to fix it through social programs that I feel are still keeping that segment of society down. Affirmative action laws didn't get passed to help Asians. Bussing didn't occur to help the Irish. We've bent over backwards to do things to "help" the black population and I think lots of it just hurt it more. There is part of black culture that keeps it down more than other cultures, but I think their history created that culture as it would have with any race.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:39 am to onmymedicalgrind
quote:Right. The correlation looks pretty clear. But it's the causation that's the issue.
Which is why I said you can point to race, but you can just as easily point to socioeconomics.
Does crime cause poverty, or does poverty result from crime?
I'd reckon that a violent, person with social and anger issues isn't going to be successful at life--regardless of race, color, or religion. But that's just a guess. None of hte data in this thread help draw a conclusion either way.
This post was edited on 9/23/14 at 11:40 am
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:40 am to KG6
quote:
We've bent over backwards to do things to "help" the black population and I think lots of it just hurt it more.
That's because we haven't yet tried the only thing that will work- reparations!
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:41 am to KG6
quote:agree
I'm not saying there was no racism against other races or cultures
quote:
But it wasn't on the same level
disagree
quote:
And there wasn't the guilt that America had to fix it through social programs that I feel are still keeping that segment of society down. Affirmative action laws didn't get passed to help Asians. Bussing didn't occur to help the Irish. We've bent over backwards to do things to "help" the black population and I think lots of it just hurt it more.
Lot of truth here.
quote:
There is part of black culture that keeps it down more than other cultures,
Yep and any identification of that from outside or within the race is labeled as racism.
quote:
but I think their history created that culture as it would have with any race.
disagree here
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:43 am to Bleeding purple
quote:
They show that there are definite areas of low black and Hispanic population that still have high poverty that do not have the same high murder rates with firearms. If we were to use your statement "Exactly. Which is why I said you can point to race, but you can just as easily point to socioeconomics." referring to this post
And, as a corollary, there are areas and counties with more affluent blacks do not have nearly the crime rate seen in poorer communities. Like I said, you can point to race, I can point to socioeconomics. We can do this dance all day.
quote:
One would expect all areas of low socioeconomic status to have similar firearm murder rates. That is simply not true.
This may not be true, but I hope you are using actual numbers and not just the maps you posted as supporting evidence.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:44 am to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
No there was no point. What percentage of middle class and above blacks are athletes or rappers in your opinion? I know on TV thats all you see, but try to get out more.
Um what? That was the point. The post I originally replied to said as wealth goes up the murder rate drops. I made a bet that blacks still had a higher rate regardless of wealth. Do you think middle class blacks don't?
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:45 am to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
And, as a corollary, there are areas and counties with more affluent blacks do not have nearly the crime rate seen in poorer communities. Like I said, you can point to race, I can point to socioeconomics. We can do this dance all day.
It is probably worthwhile to investigate the possibility whether in terms of this violent crime poor (average) > poor (black only), FWIW IMV
This post was edited on 9/23/14 at 11:46 am
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:53 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
Does crime cause poverty, or does poverty result from crime? ... None of the data in this thread help draw a conclusion either way
That data helps draw the conclusion that poverty is not as an independent variable the causation of firearm murder.
BTW;
quote:
Does crime cause poverty,
and
quote:
does poverty result from crime
are the same thing. replace the "from" with "in" and you are good.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:55 am to Bleeding purple
quote:
but I think their history created that culture as it would have with any race.
disagree here
So you believe that blacks are in the position because they are black. That something in their genes makes them stay where they are at? That any other race would just get their shite together?
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:55 am to 4LSU2
quote:
violence within the black community
I wonder how the US stats would compare to other countries without considering the above.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 11:58 am to KG6
quote:
So you believe that blacks are in the position because they are black. That something in their genes makes them stay where they are at? That any other race would just get their shite together?
You have either failed to read all my posts in this thread or your failed to comprehend them.
quote:
Even if one was to argue a predominance of violence in any particular demographic based on the clearly defined data, it would be wise to address the social, spiritual, and cultural differences of that demographic not the genetic differences determining integumentary phenotype.
edited for spelling typo
This post was edited on 9/23/14 at 12:06 pm
Posted on 9/23/14 at 12:01 pm to Bleeding purple
quote:
That data helps draw the conclusion that poverty is not as an independent variable the causation of firearm murder.
What data?
Posted on 9/23/14 at 12:02 pm to Bleeding purple
I'm simply saying that the history and experiences of a group shape it's culture. And that if any race experienced the same thing, the culture would be similar. You disagreed. The only other variable is the race itself. I'm not trying to call you a racist, but use the question to prove a point.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 12:06 pm to KG6
quote:
That data helps draw the conclusion that poverty is not as an independent variable the causation of firearm murder.
Dude just save it. On the poliboard, Asians, Irish, etc had it just as bad, if not worse, in America as blacks.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 12:29 pm to KG6
quote:
I'm simply saying that the history and experiences of a group shape it's culture
Completely agree
quote:
And that if any race experienced the same thing, the culture would be similar.
I disagree
quote:
The only other variable is the race itself
No, no it is not. You point to one heinous and deplorable period of time in the US as the entire history that shapes the black community today. Most blacks I know would see that has short sighted. The history of blacks and thus it's impart on black culture is long and rich and not limited to American slavery.
quote:
I'm not trying to call you a racist
Well it appears you are trying to imply that.
quote:
but use the question to prove a point.
I assume you mean one of these two questions: "So you believe that blacks are in the position because they are black. That something in their genes makes them stay where they are at? That any other race would just get their shite together? "
I have redundantly answered the first.
The second is more difficult to answer directly. You sated and opinion of possible outcome for all races based on the same experiences. I don't think all cultures of people would have the same outcome. I have evidenced the hardships of other cultures her in the US and how they have overcome and contrasted that to the black culture. There are other historical examples across the globe but I don't have the time to give multiplicity of examples for comparison. the fact is we will never really know how another culture would react to the exact same circumstances.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 12:37 pm to onmymedicalgrind
Hmm, I wonder what the violent crime is among Native Americans now. A quick google turned up some DOJ documents from a decade or so ago that showed that Native Americans were the victims of violent crimes twice as much as the national average. Twice as high, in fact, as the victimization rate for African Americans if I read the information correctly.
As an ethnic group they have the highest rate of unemployment. They are more likely to be binge drinkers or use drugs then any other racial group in America. Their life expectancy is 6 years lower then the national average.
I think most everyone will admit that their racial group has also experienced a tad of discrimination in the past.
It certainly looks like a correlation between their poverty and the sky high violent crime rate they suffer. They are just such a small percentage of the population, .9%, and being mostly located in remote rural states that the Native American crime problem just doesn't get as much attention.
As an ethnic group they have the highest rate of unemployment. They are more likely to be binge drinkers or use drugs then any other racial group in America. Their life expectancy is 6 years lower then the national average.
I think most everyone will admit that their racial group has also experienced a tad of discrimination in the past.
It certainly looks like a correlation between their poverty and the sky high violent crime rate they suffer. They are just such a small percentage of the population, .9%, and being mostly located in remote rural states that the Native American crime problem just doesn't get as much attention.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 12:53 pm to Bleeding purple
I said that, because I think when it is said in those simple terms it is shocking and people realize they don't feel that way. You refer to black culture before slavery as if slavery was just one small part of it. I feel slavery stripped generations of its previous culture and left nothing to build off of. We aren't helping build a base for them with our current policies. We are providing an outlet for then to not have to progress.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 1:18 pm to KG6
quote:
You refer to black culture before slavery as if slavery was just one small part of it
I spoke of American slavery that way because that is what it is. A small part of black history.
Slavery in general for blacks has long been part of their history though. African tribes have been at war, killing, raping, and enslaving each other long before the first European ship landed in the new world.
quote:
We aren't helping build a base for them with our current policies. We are providing an outlet for then to not have to progress.
I completely agree with this. I would love to not contribute to the handouts that fall very short of being a hand up.
Posted on 9/23/14 at 1:24 pm to Arksulli
quote:
It certainly looks like a correlation between their poverty and the sky high violent crime rate they suffer
I agree there seems to be a correlation there.
That does not prove a causality but suggests there may be one.
To be clear the data I presented was related to murders with a firearm which is what this thread OP was about.
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