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re: If 70% of Americans think abortion should be legal is is dumb to be trying to ban it?
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:01 am to CrimsonFever
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:01 am to CrimsonFever
There are always outlier polls on abortion but for decades most have come in at roughly 50-50 with a surprisingly slightly higher % of women as pro-life and men as undecided. It hasn't suddenly shifted to 70% in any direction.
0
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:01 am to AggieHank86
quote:
99% of the country agrees that Catholicism should not be our state religion. If you disagree, should your view prevail because YOU think it is "moral?"
what kinda of question is this? Do you think I think Catholicism should be the state religion?
My point is we are a nation not founded on a pure democracy, instead we are a nation founded on liberty for all people, unborn children as well.
to add to what I said, we are also a country founded on human rights, like life and religious freedom. If a majority of the country was for a state religion it still shouldn't go through because our constitution forbids a state religion, instead supports the free exercise of religion.
This post was edited on 7/15/23 at 10:04 am
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:19 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
With all the birth control available, free to poor people, abortion should be rare.
Considering all of the government freebies already out there paying young girls to get the implant would be money well spent.
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:20 am to AggieHank86
I think the point which the guy was making was the same question I asked earlier
Ought the apparatus of the state enforce the will of the people or ought it enforce what is “right”?
After Nuremberg, it seems apparent humans in some capacity agreed there exists something we called “human rights” and that even if a nation has unanimous popular support to do so, the apparatus of the state should not work to deprive people of those rights. This seems to indicate the answer to the above question isn’t very black and white and that there does exist lines that humans believe that the state ought not cross even with popular support.
Ought the apparatus of the state enforce the will of the people or ought it enforce what is “right”?
After Nuremberg, it seems apparent humans in some capacity agreed there exists something we called “human rights” and that even if a nation has unanimous popular support to do so, the apparatus of the state should not work to deprive people of those rights. This seems to indicate the answer to the above question isn’t very black and white and that there does exist lines that humans believe that the state ought not cross even with popular support.
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:23 am to shinerfan
quote:
Considering all of the government freebies already out there paying young girls to get the implant would be money well spent.
They hand out BC like candy, but people are too dumb to use it right, apparently.
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:25 am to Ross
quote:You raise a good question, and that is the problem. "Right vs wrong" is inherently subjective, so all we can do is enforce those limits which REPRESENT "the will" of an adequately-large segment of the population.
Ought the apparatus of the state enforce the will of the people or ought it enforce what is “right”?
To pass ephemeral legislation, that percentage is pretty low. To pass something more permanent (in the form of a "Constitutional Right"), the percentage is higher. But in both cases, it is simply the "will of the people." Only the percentages change.
This post was edited on 7/15/23 at 10:26 am
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:26 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
They hand out BC like candy, but people are too dumb to use it right, apparently.
Nothing is completely idiot-proof but implants reduce that issue considerably. And I'm not saying make it free, I'm saying cutting them a check for getting it would save vast amounts of future money.
This post was edited on 7/15/23 at 10:29 am
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:28 am to AggieHank86
I think there are things that you could say are the “right” or “good” thing to do absent any popular support whatsoever. I’d base a proper judgement on if it is right or good on if the act in question works to promote human happiness and flourishing.
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:31 am to Ross
quote:I understand.
I think there are things that you could say are the “right” or “good” thing to do absent any popular support whatsoever. I’d base a proper judgement on if it is right or good on if the act in question works to promote human happiness and flourishing.
But if you were a dictator with absolute power (even a benevolent one), would you be comfortable imposing that view upon a population that is 100% in opposition to your beliefs?
Personally, I would not.
quote:Which are entirely subjective concepts. Hence, the problem.
I’d base a proper judgement on if it is right or good on if the act in question works to promote human happiness and flourishing.
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:31 am to shinerfan
quote:
I'm saying cutting them a check for getting it would save vast amounts of future money.
I am reaching the point to where i agree.
I was once dumb enough to think most humans could handle freedom but that illusion has been totally shattered.
Some people weren't meant to live in a free society. Pay them off to stop breeding.
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:37 am to AggieHank86
quote:
Which are entirely subjective concepts. Hence, the problem.
I believe the definitions of these terms as derived from the Aristotelian school of thought aren’t actually as subjective as you might think.
As far as if I’d personally be willing to enact law contrary to the will of everyone? Probably not. I don’t think I have the fortitude and I think such a move is much more likely to be misguided if literally everyone is opposed. I trust that it’s more likely I have made a faulty moral judgement than literally everyone else being wrong.
My only point is if you take the stance that people seemed to take when approaching something like the Nuremberg trials, you have to concede that humanity seems to place a burden on the apparatus of the state to act contrary to the will of the people when the state is faced with certain actions or inactions.
This post was edited on 7/15/23 at 10:38 am
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:38 am to catholictigerfan
quote:
a majority of the country was for a state religion it still shouldn't go through because our constitution forbids a state religion
I have some really bad news for you
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:56 am to Ross
quote:Good post. Have an upvote.
Ross
Posted on 7/15/23 at 10:58 am to AggieHank86
quote:
Right vs wrong" is inherently subjective
No it’s not. You just want to do whatever you want to do like a child and not be held accountable. You know good and well what is right and wrong.
That’s the problem today, oh, this issue is kind of a grey area. No, it’s not.
You’re either evil or not. There is no sorta or kinda evil.
This post was edited on 7/15/23 at 11:00 am
Posted on 7/15/23 at 11:06 am to wareaglepete
quote:
You’re either evil or not. There is no sorta or kinda evil.
Some people are born without a conscience, or a soul and right from wrong is extremely difficult for them to manage. You have to baby step and mansplain to these folks as their brains are like a womans, a bowl of spaghetti.
They usually just choose the popular opinion to adopt. Some people just don't have the natural intuition to understand harming others isn't a right.
This post was edited on 7/15/23 at 11:07 am
Posted on 7/15/23 at 11:22 am to shinerfan
quote:
I'm saying cutting them a check for getting it would save vast amounts of future money.
If we are all totally honest, do we want women who abort their children to really be raising kids? I sure as hell don't
This post was edited on 7/15/23 at 11:23 am
Posted on 7/15/23 at 12:45 pm to CrimsonFever
quote:
Im not that religious and don't really care either way but I blame the abortion issue for stopping the red wave that was coming in the midterms.
It it worth doing even though its unpopular? Seems like we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
So, never fight for what’s right in saving human life except if it’s popular opinion to do so?
Sounds like you’d have fit in quite well in the third Reich. Just go along to get along.
Posted on 7/15/23 at 12:50 pm to Mike da Tigah
quote:
So, never fight for what’s right in saving human life except if it’s popular opinion to do so?
Progressives always choose whats popular because they have no value system.
Posted on 7/15/23 at 1:09 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Progressives always choose whats popular because they have no value system.
Power at all cost, and what we are left with is a big ever controlling valueless nothingness never content with anything but yet more and more power.
After re-reading the treaty of Paris and other founding documents recently I am reminded just how far we have deviated from state sovereignty and embraced this national collectivist all powerful federal overseer approach to government, and this is never more clearly underscored how far we’ve fallen than with the outrage that the SCOTUS ruling had on people on the left, and that’s due in large part to their hatred of that very state sovereignty our government was founded upon.
Never intended to be an overseer, but rather simply an agent for the various sovereign states to operate within. But if you ask your average leftist today, they think that the federal government actually created states and isn’t a body acting upon their behalf. It’s this very perversion we are operating within that is causing none of it to work as it should work. It’s why it has become a failure from top to bottom.
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