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re: How is it possible that some Protestant churches support gay marriage?

Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:02 am to
Posted by Furious
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2023
998 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:02 am to
quote:

As far as I know, the idea that the Eucharist was a mere representation, as well as sola scriptura, and sola fide, are ideas that developed randomly after 1500 years of Christianity.


Absolutely correct. 1500 years after Christ, some braniacs decided that they were going to do what they wanted regardless of what the Catholic or Orthodox church said. They basically wnet out on their own and decided for themselves that they knew better than Jesus on certain parts of his teachings.

That is not to say that Protestants aren't Christians or that they can't go to heaven.
Posted by JimEverett
Member since May 2020
1450 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:06 am to
That is why I said "mainline Protestant" churches.

For those that don't know - those are some of the the older Protestant churches of the U.S. - the most politically influential churches most of U.S. history, but have experienced a pretty dramatic decline in the last 60 years or so.
They include - the Disciples of Christ, the Episcopal Church, United Church of Christ, Presbyterian Church USA, United Methodist Church, and the Unitarian/Universalist Church. I am probably leaving out a few.
Apart from some non-denomination churches - these are most likely the churches that will fly the Pride flag, have a black lives matter sign, and a lesbian pastor. They are also full of white senior citizens.
Posted by Uga Alum
Member since Jul 2022
3517 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:10 am to
The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before holy invocation of the adorable trinity wee simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ-St. Cyril of Jerusalem.

I don’t know man….seems pretty clear cut to me.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
44056 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:13 am to
quote:

But Augustine himself did not believe in sola scriptura or sola fide.
I disagree, at least in terms of affirming the principle of sola scriptura, and I also disagree that Augustine didn't have some understanding of salvation by grace alone. It's why the doctrines of grace of Calvinism are often times called "Augustinian", especially in terms of contrasting total depravity with free will. The Reformers referenced Augustine heavily for their "Calvinistic" soteriology.

quote:

And the New Testament was written in the first century but not finalized until the 4th century.
That which is Scripture was completed at the end of the 1st century. Those letters--once written--were circulated throughout the Church immediately where copies were made. While not everyone had every NT book/letter at all times, that is irrelevant to what sola scriptura actually teaches, which is that the only infallible rule for faith and life of the Church was found in the writings that are God-breathed and preserved for the Church. The oral traditions of the Apostles were not preserved, which is why I said that there is no document in existence that lists out every oral tradition of the Apostles given to the Church.

quote:

Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Darby and John Wesley did not know the early church fathers or the apostles.
They didn't need to know them personally. They had their writings to reference and quote from.

BTW, I'm a fan of Luther and Calvin, but I'm not as much of a fan of Darby and Wesley.

Posted by Uga Alum
Member since Jul 2022
3517 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:16 am to
Not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these…The food which has been made into the Eucharist by Eucharist prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus-St Justin Martyr.
Posted by Bowstring1
Member since Sep 2016
105 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:18 am to
Any protestant church believe or support whatever their narrative
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
44056 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:18 am to
quote:

The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before holy invocation of the adorable trinity wee simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ-St. Cyril of Jerusalem.

I don’t know man….seems pretty clear cut to me.
“[W]hat He says is not fleshly but spiritual. For how many would the body suffice for eating, that it should become the food for the whole world? But for this reason He made mention of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven, in order that He might draw them away from the bodily notion, and that from henceforth they might learn that the aforesaid flesh was heavenly eating from above and spiritual food given by Him.” (Athanasius, Festal Letter, 4.19)

I don't know man....seems pretty clear cut to me.

Like I said, there are differing views of the Eucharist throughout the early church history. My point was to show that church history is messy and that Rome (or the Orthodox) cannot claim absolute unanimity with the ECFs, as if their modern views were held exactly by everyone in church history. Those views developed over time.
Posted by BarberitosDawg
Lee County Florida across causeway
Member since Oct 2013
12077 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:19 am to
You are talking about the Methodist of whom are having a very ruff spilt right now. The episcopal church is gay friendly.

Presbyterians would just assume burn the ones mentioned above as heretics.
Posted by LSUbest
Coastal Plain
Member since Aug 2007
13307 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:19 am to
No denomination has a monopoly on perversion of the gospel.
Posted by dewster
Chicago
Member since Aug 2006
25984 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:21 am to
quote:

How is it possible that some Protestant churches support gay marriage?



Protestants are not tied to a singular central authority based on scripture.

So you have some that are very strict adherence to core Christian values and govern themselves very well. Then others that stray so far from it that you could barely recognize it as a Christian church. That's the landscape right now and has been for a while.
This post was edited on 5/19/25 at 10:22 am
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
44056 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:22 am to
quote:

Not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these…The food which has been made into the Eucharist by Eucharist prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus-St Justin Martyr.
“the bread which our Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom He also suffered, and also to the cup which He taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood"(Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 70).

Again, even the ECFs weren't clear on exactly what they meant in what they said at all times. When the RCC or Orthodox say that the ECFs taught transubstantiation and the real physical presence, they are forcing current beliefs into history.

Most of the quotes from the ECFs regarding Jesus' body and blood can be quoted by us in the Reformed tradition that see the elements so closely tied to the reality of Christ that we can call them His body and blood, even though we don't believe they are transformed into His physical body and blood.
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
44056 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:25 am to
quote:

That is not to say that Protestants aren't Christians or that they can't go to heaven.
The Council of Trent would disagree with you. The fluffy view of non-Catholics from the 2nd Vatican Council is at odds with the historic view of both Trent and the idea of an anathema. Essentially if Protestants affirm that justification is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and that good works to not add to or merit our salvation in any way, then if we die holding to that belief, we die outside the Church and are presumed to be in Hell. That's what the anathema meant throughout history and what is tied to the doctrine of justification by faith alone.
This post was edited on 5/19/25 at 10:26 am
Posted by Uga Alum
Member since Jul 2022
3517 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:28 am to
Ok. Well, I feel like you are kind of reaching to make your quotes mean what you want them to. “Not as common bread or common wine”, “and by the change.” These quotes seem to be undeniable.

But whatever. I know at the end of the day we won’t agree. Ultimately, I hope we all achieve salvation.
This post was edited on 5/19/25 at 10:42 am
Posted by dewster
Chicago
Member since Aug 2006
25984 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:29 am to
quote:

Episcopalians are not really in a "church" per se. It is a social club for upper middle-class whites.


Catholic Lite. Perfectly friendly people but the ones I know are uncomfortable with acceptance of core Catholic beliefs and traditions.

My grandfather was Episcopalian and a free mason. He married a Catholic girl and the stereotypes held 100% true: Every one of his kids and grand kids became practicing Catholics.
Posted by Uga Alum
Member since Jul 2022
3517 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:30 am to
Can you describe your view of faith alone? How do we achieve salvation in your view?
Posted by Doofus
Member since Apr 2022
387 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:30 am to
Because it is 2025 and someone being gay is not that big of a deal. Yall sure do get worked up over things that dont affect you in any way.
Posted by troyt37
Member since Mar 2008
14321 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:30 am to
quote:

Protestants are not tied to a singular central authority based on scripture.


The Bible and scripture is that authority. Granted, there typically isn't a gargantuan hierarchy and bureaucracy enforcing that authority, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. The real churches hold themselves to the authority of the Bible and scripture.
Posted by dewster
Chicago
Member since Aug 2006
25984 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:34 am to
quote:

They view the text through post-postmodern lenses.


This is almost an expectation of many Americans today. And those same folks were shocked that the new Pope is *gasp* Catholic.

And being Catholic means that you aren't going to adhere to the radical elements of the LGBTQ agenda and you definitely aren't budget on being pro-life. And you can be a total commie in every way but modern progressives will hate you if you aren't on board with the LGBTQ agenda or support abortion.
Posted by dewster
Chicago
Member since Aug 2006
25984 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:36 am to
quote:

The real churches hold themselves to the authority of the Bible and scripture.


Those very much do still exist. But they are fewer and farther between in the junk drawer that has become of the wide variety of protestant churches out there.
Posted by alphaandomega
Tuscaloosa-Here to Serve
Member since Aug 2012
15821 posts
Posted on 5/19/25 at 10:37 am to
quote:


This is what happens when you have 300 denominations and everybody interprets the Bible and establishes doctrine for themselves.


As opposed to the Catholic church? It is yet to be seen how their new pope will be but the prior one was most certainly not a man of the bible. His acceptance of same sex marriages and obstruction of priests who are pedophiles (moving them to another parish instead of letting them pay for their crimes).

Churches change just like society does. All we can do is try to stay on the right path. I was raised in the Presbyterian church and when I was young we had a wonderful pastor. He retired and the new pastor was much more progressive. So I left that chuch and went to the Methodist, that was fine for a number of years then that pastor retired and the replacement was another progressive. So I left them as well. Now I usually listen to the sermon from The Church of the Highlands. These sermons are usually very close to my line of thinking. I dont care for the rock and roll part of the service, or the arm waving like they are at a hippie concert but the word of the sermon is good. So I watch the sermon on TV after fast forwarding past the music parts.

My point is that as society changes many of the people in churches change as well.
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