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Message
re: Hell is real. Non-Christians and unbelievers I would love your thoughts. I love you guys.
Posted on 4/28/21 at 4:06 pm to Gravitiger
Posted on 4/28/21 at 4:06 pm to Gravitiger
quote:Sounds like a very misled opinion.
I can't remember if it was Sartre or Camus, but to paraphrase...
"Christianity is optimistic about god and pessimistic about man. I am optimistic about man and pessimistic about god."
1
Posted on 4/28/21 at 4:06 pm to ShoeBang
quote:The sin of the messenger does not nullify the truth of the message. In this case, Christ's sacrifice for sin is true regardless of whether His followers live sinless lives.
Edited. Thanks for inferring that I should kill myself though. Super christian, just like JC would have wanted
Posted on 4/28/21 at 4:10 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Are you saying there are no original teachings of Jesus available to "compare to the Bible"? Because that literally undercuts ALL of the gospels (or at least the four out of the hundreds then written and available that were politically chosen for inclusion in the Bible, because they coincided with Pauline doctrine, which is where this whole conversation started).
How did you arrive at this conclusion? Where are the original teachings of Jesus to compare to the Bible to show where they have been bastardized?
This post was edited on 4/28/21 at 5:07 pm
Posted on 4/28/21 at 4:11 pm to FooManChoo
quote:I'd say the same about yours.
Sounds like a very misled opinion.
Posted on 4/28/21 at 4:13 pm to FooManChoo
quote:That's not a proof. It's just circular logic. You have to assume the premises without any evidence in order to reach the conclusion, and one of the premises is the conclusion: "God exists, because other things wouldn't exist if god didn't." Lolwut.
Yes, there are. The greatest, in my estimation, apart from the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit testifying to these things is the transcendental argument that says that the proof of God's existence is that if He didn't exist, we couldn't prove anything at all, including scientific and logical inference, or even moral absolutes.
If you have to include "in my estimation" that is by definition not a logical proof. Just an opinion.
There is no more historically viable evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was the Jewish messiah than there is that David Koresh was. Jesus was probably a charasmatic schizophrenic, by today's mental health diagnoses (same as Koresh and Warren Jeffs).
Today, we would treat anyone who claims what Jesus claimed just like the Romans treated him 2K years ago: "This MFer sounds MFing crazy. Blow or lock his azz up."
This post was edited on 4/28/21 at 5:18 pm
Posted on 4/28/21 at 5:10 pm to Roger Klarvin
"Is it your contention that if a person believes what the Bible says about Hell, he needs to abandon every aspect of life not directly related to saving souls from going there?
Correct, that would be the only morally defensible position. Anything less makes someone who genuinely believes in such things an incomprehensibly sadistic monster."
So, are you saying that unless a person has perfect compassion in this matter, then he is not a true Christian? May I also assume that you believe that no one is going to Heaven, because no one is perfect? But perhaps you believe that there is no Heaven or Hell. Perhaps what you really believe is that there is no Heaven or Hell and there really is no God.
It's apparent, unless you really have misspoken, that you are building an argument to negate God Himself.
The only one I know of who is perfect/perfectly compassionate is God himself.
Thank you Lord for your love and forgiveness.
Correct, that would be the only morally defensible position. Anything less makes someone who genuinely believes in such things an incomprehensibly sadistic monster."
So, are you saying that unless a person has perfect compassion in this matter, then he is not a true Christian? May I also assume that you believe that no one is going to Heaven, because no one is perfect? But perhaps you believe that there is no Heaven or Hell. Perhaps what you really believe is that there is no Heaven or Hell and there really is no God.
It's apparent, unless you really have misspoken, that you are building an argument to negate God Himself.
The only one I know of who is perfect/perfectly compassionate is God himself.
Thank you Lord for your love and forgiveness.
This post was edited on 4/28/21 at 5:15 pm
Posted on 4/28/21 at 5:24 pm to Tigerinthewoods
quote:Based on Jesus' words (as attributed in the accepted gospels) anyone who doesn't have perfect compassion in all matters is not abiding by his teachings. It's an impossible task.
So, are you saying that unless a person has perfect compassion in this matter, then he is not a true Christian?
That is different from being a true Christian, which only involves believing Jesus of Nazareth is the Jewish messiah who came to earth to die to absolve your sins.
You can be a "true Christian" without acting Christ-like. Most "true Christians" do not act like Christ.
This post was edited on 4/28/21 at 5:32 pm
Posted on 4/28/21 at 5:51 pm to Tigerinthewoods
No, I’m pointing out that most Christians don’t actually believe what they claim to believe. Even if they themselves don’t realize it.
The cognitive dissonance generated in the mind of anyone who critically assess how the world should look (if Christianity was true and Christians actually believed it with the conviction they claim) vs what it actually looks like is one of the stronger arguments against the truth of the worldview.
The cognitive dissonance generated in the mind of anyone who critically assess how the world should look (if Christianity was true and Christians actually believed it with the conviction they claim) vs what it actually looks like is one of the stronger arguments against the truth of the worldview.
Posted on 4/28/21 at 5:57 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
How did the admins let this go, clearly a religion thread which is banned on here.
Our Constitution and Government are based on the idea of God; I.e., Religion and God-given Rights as opposed to a Democratic Majority Rule ("mob rule").
The Admins do not err in tolerating substantive Religious argument, as the credibility of Religion is directly related to that of (our) Government. Besides, it's some of the most spirited and interesting debate on the Forum. This Thread might run for weeks; hell, the now-deceased and red-headed stepchild one went for years, and must have set some sort of record.
Posted on 4/28/21 at 6:03 pm to Roger Klarvin
There are lots of analogies with the exodus from Egypt, the signs and wonders, the carnal struggles in the wilderness, and the battles after entering into the promise land.
Israel was saved by the blood of the lamb.
Baptized in the Red Sea
Stuggled with Fleshly Desires and Rebellion for 40 years in their walk with the (Cloud by Day/ Pillar of Fire By Night)
Entered into the promise land (a gift promised to Abram) where they would fight victorious battles.
That's a lot like a Christian's walk
Saved by the blood of the lamb
Baptized
Struggle with Carnal desires for 40 years in our walk with the Holy Spirit
Some of us fight spiritual battles victoriously grow our gift (of salvation) to bear fruit for our inheritance in heaven. Other neglect the gift of salvation and leave it desolate.
Being saved is not the same as doing something with the gift given. Christians are as varied as people.
Israel was saved by the blood of the lamb.
Baptized in the Red Sea
Stuggled with Fleshly Desires and Rebellion for 40 years in their walk with the (Cloud by Day/ Pillar of Fire By Night)
Entered into the promise land (a gift promised to Abram) where they would fight victorious battles.
That's a lot like a Christian's walk
Saved by the blood of the lamb
Baptized
Struggle with Carnal desires for 40 years in our walk with the Holy Spirit
Some of us fight spiritual battles victoriously grow our gift (of salvation) to bear fruit for our inheritance in heaven. Other neglect the gift of salvation and leave it desolate.
Being saved is not the same as doing something with the gift given. Christians are as varied as people.
Posted on 4/28/21 at 6:08 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
The coexistence of genuine free will and an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being in the same reality is a logical paradox. The two concepts are, by definition, mutually exclusive.
If the God orthodox christianity believes in exists, then free will cannot. Only the illusion of free will can exist in that reality. If free will does truly exist, God either doesn't exist or is a lesser being than described in the monotheistic belief systems.
The attempts to take the blame from God as described in christianity by citing free will simply won't fly. If God is truly what you claim him to be, he alone is responsible for any action ever taken by his creation.
Wrong.
Without free will, we are mere robots. Why would a loving God force his creation to obey him or love him?
Everything that’s wrong with this world is 100% our fault for bringing it into the world. We are suffering the consequences of our OWN actions. We brought this curse on ourselves, not God. You need a lesson on accountability.
Posted on 4/28/21 at 6:10 pm to Gravitiger
quote:We know what Jesus taught because God preserved those teachings necessary for salvation and the Christian life for us through what we call the New Testament.
Are you saying there are no original teachings of Jesus available to "compare to the Bible"?
You seem to be saying that Jesus' teachings were bastardized in some way. How so?
Also, Jesus taught that He is the only way to be saved. Is that also an "awesome" teaching you appreciate?
quote:I'm in support of the gospels as well as the whole of the NT. Since you were claiming Jesus' teaching was bastardized in some way, I assume you were referring to some original teaching that was left out or altered in the NT writings we have.
Because that literally undercuts ALL of the gospels (or at least the four out of the hundreds then written and available that were politically chosen for inclusion in the Bible, because they coincided with Pauline doctrine, which is where this whole conversation started).
Posted on 4/28/21 at 6:12 pm to Gravitiger
quote:And you're free to think that way. The longer I live, the more sin I see in the world and the more corruption I see in the human condition. People aren't "basically good"; people are basically selfish and seeking their own pleasure and/or preservation above all else, making themselves gods of their own lives.
I'd say the same about yours.
God is holy. We are not.
Posted on 4/28/21 at 6:13 pm to FlexDawg
quote:
Without free will, we are mere robots. Why would a loving God force his creation to obey him or love him?
The why doesn’t matter. Either God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent or he isn’t. If he is, free will cannot exist. Such a being knows the future, and the future must be fixed. If it is not and we are free to choose, that would render God capable of being wrong in which case he does not possess the qualities Christianity ascribes to him.
Again, free will and a being such as the Christian God cannot existent in the same reality. They are mutually exclusive concepts. This is basic intro level logic, and a fatal flaw in orthodox monotheistic theology that theologians have been trying to worm their way around for millennia.
quote:
You need a lesson on accountability.
You need a lesson in basic logic and philosophy
This post was edited on 4/28/21 at 6:18 pm
Posted on 4/28/21 at 6:24 pm to Gravitiger
quote:
Based on Jesus' words (as attributed in the accepted gospels) anyone who doesn't have perfect compassion in all matters is not abiding by his teachings. It's an impossible task.
This is the ultimate argument that Satan (and atheists) pose to a Christian. "You can't abide by His teachings, it's an impossible task." This argument paralyzes Christians and fills them with guilt. It reinforces the idea that you are saved by works and not by faith. This causes young Christians to step out on their own, and by their own power to try to be like Christ. They fail and the cycle is complete. Satan, (and his atheistic friends) are successful in discouraging/deflating young Christians.
You seem to like Christian teachings, that's wonderful. You're missing the whole point, Christ Himself. If there is no Christ, then survival of the fittest is the next best option. Do whatever it takes for you and yours to survive. It won't matter, there will be no consequences beyond what happens on this earth. If there is no Higher morality, no moral compass to which we all must comply, then all morality is purely relative. If my morality says I can come and take what you have, then it's just as good and true as any morality you may choose to have.
I do not follow Christ's teachings because I believe in them, I follow them because I believe in Christ. I am content not to aspire to being a perfect adherent to His teachings, but to doing my best to let Him work thru me to accomplish his will. I know I will fail, He told me I would. But I lay aside the guilt you would curse me with and get back up and become his instrument again. I am so done with the guilt you and your master would lay on me. He says I am forgiven, then I am forgiven.
Praise God!
Posted on 4/28/21 at 6:37 pm to Gravitiger
quote:Logic provides proof. And not all circular reasoning is fallacious.
That's not a proof. It's just circular logic. You have to assume the premises without any evidence in order to reach the conclusion, and one of the premises is the conclusion: "God exists, because other things wouldn't exist if god didn't." Lolwut.
For example... prove to me that logic exists without using logic (assuming it).
There are some things that are so fundamental to a coherent understanding of reality that they must be assumed. God is the first of those things.
quote:Not at all. The reason why I said "in my estimation" is not because it's merely an opinion, but because even proof must be accepted as such. If I provide proofs of some truth that convinces everyone but you, you won't accept those things as proofs at all while others will. Does that mean those proofs aren't proofs? Perhaps not to you, but to others, they are.
If you have to include "in my estimation" that is by definition not a logical proof. Just an opinion.
quote:Are not the writings of the old and new testaments historical evidence? I haven't seen any that Koresh was a messiah other than what he taught about himself, which was entirely contradictory to the Bible which he claimed to hold in high regard (all of his seven seal theology stemmed from the Bible). He was a false prophet that made prophesies that didn't come to pass and his life was filled with sin, even after his supposed ascendance as a prophet, which is not consistent with biblical prophets or apostles.
There is no more historically viable evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was the Jewish messiah than there is that David Koresh was.
quote:And yet you said he had awesome teaching. I'm curious why you think so highly of a schizophrenic on par with Koresh and Warren Jeffs.
Jesus was probably a charasmatic schizophrenic, by today's mental health diagnoses (same as Koresh and Warren Jeffs).
quote:And for good reason. Those modern day prophets contradict the holy teaching of scripture without any evidence that what they teach is from God. Jesus didn't perform miracles for entertainment; He did them to show that He was God incarnate and that His words had authority.
Today, we would treat anyone who claims what Jesus claimed just like the Romans treated him 2K years ago: "This MFer sounds MFing crazy. Blow or lock his azz up."
Posted on 4/28/21 at 6:57 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Are not the writings of the old and new testaments historical evidence?
In as much as any other religious text is, sure. The issue is the Bible is open to the same criticisms Christians levy at the Koran, the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, etc. They just don’t apply these criticisms to their own text.
The Koran is a notoriously unreliable historical text, for example, because some of the events it describes objectively did not happen. Christians are more than willing to point this out. The same is true of the Bible however, particularly the OT. It describes events we know simply didn’t happen.
Posted on 4/28/21 at 6:57 pm to Cajun Tiger 4
I was raised in a very religious family. I became agnostic at age 15 but never told my folks. I am still agnostic and do not tell anyone I know IRL.
I do not deny there might be things we do not understand. There might be some supreme intelligence out there, but we can't prove it and I like to go on evidence.
I often wonder why we exist at all, though. It seems that nothingness is much simpler of an existence than this huge universe with gazillions of stars and planets. Also, one must ask if God exists, who created God? It's an old philosophical problem that's been asked since at least the ancient Greeks.
So, the way I see it, you have to accept one of two propositions:
1) Universe is timeless and always existed in some way - a brute fact.
2) God is timeless, has always existed in some way, and then created the universe.
So if we have to choose between one or the other, then "1" is the simpler answer. Existence might be a brute fact - there might be no such thing as nothingness. Even if it's just tiny particles that existed for eons (until the Big Bang), then that's still "something." In other words, the Big Bang did not occur in a vacuum - something existed before and always has.
Physicists can trace the Big Bang back to something like 10^-32 seconds, but they can't go back further. No one knows what happened "before" the Big Bang. Some argue there was no "before" because the Big Bang also created time. But that begs the question how something comes from nothing (which I don't think is possible). Hence why I think the universe is some form or fashion is timeless.
This is where I am with my thinking today.
I do not deny there might be things we do not understand. There might be some supreme intelligence out there, but we can't prove it and I like to go on evidence.
I often wonder why we exist at all, though. It seems that nothingness is much simpler of an existence than this huge universe with gazillions of stars and planets. Also, one must ask if God exists, who created God? It's an old philosophical problem that's been asked since at least the ancient Greeks.
So, the way I see it, you have to accept one of two propositions:
1) Universe is timeless and always existed in some way - a brute fact.
2) God is timeless, has always existed in some way, and then created the universe.
So if we have to choose between one or the other, then "1" is the simpler answer. Existence might be a brute fact - there might be no such thing as nothingness. Even if it's just tiny particles that existed for eons (until the Big Bang), then that's still "something." In other words, the Big Bang did not occur in a vacuum - something existed before and always has.
Physicists can trace the Big Bang back to something like 10^-32 seconds, but they can't go back further. No one knows what happened "before" the Big Bang. Some argue there was no "before" because the Big Bang also created time. But that begs the question how something comes from nothing (which I don't think is possible). Hence why I think the universe is some form or fashion is timeless.
This is where I am with my thinking today.
Posted on 4/28/21 at 7:07 pm to AUstar
quote:
Physicists can trace the Big Bang back to something like 10^-32 seconds
No they cannot. Were those physicists around at that time? No. Its theory. I agree that you cant make something out of nothing. That is why I believe that only God could make this happen. Refer to Genesis.
Posted on 4/28/21 at 7:15 pm to Dawgirl
quote:
Were those physicists around at that time?
They didn’t need to be, that’s the beauty of physics.
quote:
I agree that you cant make something out of nothing.
Why not?
Also, define “nothing”
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