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Message
re: Greater Evil, Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:30 am to GardenDistrictTiger
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:30 am to GardenDistrictTiger
Easily Nazis they wiped out the third of one of Europe's largest ethnic groups.
That said communists are wolves in sheep's clothing.
That said communists are wolves in sheep's clothing.
0
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:33 am to GardenDistrictTiger
Nazis for all their own crimes and not finishing the job when they invaded and directly delivering the confidence Stalin and later Soviet leaders didn't have in their military to actually contend for controlling the fate of the world.
Had the Nazis won out on the Eastern front, they still would have been a broken shell. Berlin would be nuked sometime in 46-47. Japan would be ash from the constant fire bombings for 1-2 years at that point.
Had the Nazis won out on the Eastern front, they still would have been a broken shell. Berlin would be nuked sometime in 46-47. Japan would be ash from the constant fire bombings for 1-2 years at that point.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:35 am to VADawg
quote:
The ways they killed POWs were some of the most horrific shite known to mankind.
they cannibalized a lot of our captured aviators, in some cases, because of lack of refrigeration the would eat the organs piece by piece, having a doctor give just enough medical attention to keep them alive to keep their organs edible
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:36 am to Hidden Tiger
do we have a holocaust denier in our midst? 
But about the Red Army... they were not the best army in the world in 1941...far from it.
They were the biggest. But in terms of elite troops, there were very few.
Stalin purged damn near every officer in their army before their attack on Finland...which I must remind you...the Soviets struggled heavily to take just a few cities in Finland.
Then after that failure, Stalin had even more officers fired or killed. The army was an absolute mess which is why Hitler was so confident that he would win and why he attacked when he did.
If not for a few tactical errors in not encircling Moscow and Stalingrad a little faster, they could have potentially knocked Russia out before winter.
But about the Red Army... they were not the best army in the world in 1941...far from it.
They were the biggest. But in terms of elite troops, there were very few.
Stalin purged damn near every officer in their army before their attack on Finland...which I must remind you...the Soviets struggled heavily to take just a few cities in Finland.
Then after that failure, Stalin had even more officers fired or killed. The army was an absolute mess which is why Hitler was so confident that he would win and why he attacked when he did.
If not for a few tactical errors in not encircling Moscow and Stalingrad a little faster, they could have potentially knocked Russia out before winter.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:41 am to saintsfan92612
quote:
do we have a holocaust denier in our midst?
If you read his other posts, him being a denier is not surprising at all. Dude is insane.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:42 am to lazy
quote:
Nazis invaded and occupied most western democracies. Soviets were a threat but never invaded a western democracy.
quote:
lazy
I guess Lazy is too lazy to crack open a history book.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:43 am to Cossatotjoe
quote:
there were no roads in 1940s Russia
Horse and carts require roads.
And of course roads existed.
This a personal bugbear, but the Soviet Union, not Russia. It’s not the same thing.
This post was edited on 1/23/21 at 10:44 am
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:43 am to saintsfan92612
quote:
do we have a holocaust denier in our midst?
But about the Red Army... they were not the best army in the world in 1941...far from it.
They were the biggest. But in terms of elite troops, there were very few.
Stalin purged damn near every officer in their army before their attack on Finland...which I must remind you...the Soviets struggled heavily to take just a few cities in Finland.
Then after that failure, Stalin had even more officers fired or killed. The army was an absolute mess which is why Hitler was so confident that he would win and why he attacked when he did.
If not for a few tactical errors in not encircling Moscow and Stalingrad a little faster, they could have potentially knocked Russia out before winter.
Sigh...
As the Russians say, “Quantity has a quality all of its own.”
The Soviet’s did remarkably well in Finland given what they were facing. They faced the toughest people in Europe, in Northernmost country in Europe, in the winter, on ground where the Fins had been preparing for a Soviet invasion since the 1920s. No other Army would have done as well.
It would so how could encircling Stalingrad a little faster in the summer of 1942 have brought the war to a close before the winter of 1941?
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:44 am to 777Tiger
quote:
they cannibalized a lot of our captured aviators, in some cases, because of lack of refrigeration the would eat the organs piece by piece, having a doctor give just enough medical attention to keep them alive to keep their organs edible
They ate flesh off of live POWs all the time. There was a story that they were doing this to captured Australian soldiers, and then throwing their mutilated (but still alive) bodies into ditches and leaving them for dead.
They rounded up about 150 American POWs in air raid shelters and set the shelters on fire while blocking all escape routes.
They chained Indian POWs to the top of submarines, and then the submarines dove, which drowned those POWs in as horrific of a matter as you can think of.
They stranded survivors of sunken ships in the ocean. They would pick up their own people and just leave the enemy sailors where they were.
They routinely bombed and torpedoed hospital ships.
They transported POWs from Hong Kong, Singapore, and the Philippines to mainland Japan by cramming them into cargo holds. They didn't mark these as POW transport ships, and these ships would be frequently targeted by enemies, who didn't know their own countrymen were packed in the cargo holds like cattle. These were called "hell ships". In one instance, one of the hell ships was torpedoed with about 1800 British and Canadian POWs packed in the holds. The Japanese sailors cut the ladders to the holds and battened the hatches, intending for the POWs to all drown while the Japanese sailors escaped the sinking ship.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:47 am to Lima Whiskey
quote:
This a personal bugbear, but the Soviet Union, not Russia. It’s not the same thing.
Okay, in 1941 there were almost no paved roads in the area of the Soviet Union between the frontiers of Eastern Poland and Moscow, which is conventionally defined as that part of the Soviet Union consisting of European Russia, Belorussia, and the Ukraine.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:51 am to Cossatotjoe
quote:
The Soviet’s did remarkably well in Finland given what they were facing. They faced the toughest people in Europe, in Northernmost country in Europe, in the winter, on ground where the Fins had been preparing for a Soviet invasion since the 1920s. No other Army would have done as well. It would so how could encircling Stalingrad a little faster in the summer of 1942 have brought the war to a close before the winter of 1941?
You overestimate the strength of the Red Army in 1941... the Russians had lost every war the previous 50 years
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:54 am to saintsfan92612
The Germans failures were strategic not operational or tactical. The Ostheer simply did not have the manpower or resources to meet the goals of Barbarossa, Typhoon, Case Blue or Citadel.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:56 am to Cossatotjoe
quote:
It would so how could encircling Stalingrad a little faster in the summer of 1942 have brought the war to a close before the winter of 1941?
2 different winters. The winter of 1941 was a disaster...yes, but the summer offensive of 1942 still could have encircled stalingrad and completely cut off the caucasus which would have cut the Baku oil field supply off. Without that oil, the soviets are kind of fricked.
This post was edited on 1/23/21 at 10:56 am
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:56 am to Cossatotjoe
quote:
The Soviet BY FAR had the largest and best equipped army in the world by 1941
Wait what?
A lot of soviet fighters received no equipment and little to no training.
All the soviets had going for them was sheer numbers. They could continue to throw bodies into the fire.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:58 am to saintsfan92612
quote:
2 different winters. The winter of 1941 was a disaster...yes, but the summer offensive of 1942 still could have encircled stalingrad and completely cut off the caucasus which would have cut the Baku oil field supply off. Without that oil, the soviets are kind of fricked.
I knew they were two different winters, hence the question.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 10:59 am to Cossatotjoe
maybe because the winter of 42 was when everything went to shite for the germans and was the one I was talking about
Posted on 1/23/21 at 11:01 am to saintsfan92612
They had no intention of encircling Stalingrad, Army Group B did not have the ability to cross and support troop in combat operations across the Volga. The intention was to take the city, anchor their flank and interdict the river.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 11:03 am to Cfrobel
I will admit I don't know a ton about the battle of Stalingrad... but didn't group B march south instead of "anchoring the flank"
Posted on 1/23/21 at 11:04 am to Cfrobel
quote:
The Germans failures were strategic not operational or tactical. The Ostheer simply did not have the manpower or resources to meet the goals of Barbarossa, Typhoon, Case Blue or Citadel.
Exactly. It just couldn’t be done and capturing Moscow would have done nothing more for them than it did Napoleon.
Contrary to popular thought, Hitler’s refusal to allow a strategic withdrawal in the winter of 1941 probably saved the Germans from a repeat of the Grand Retreat. I doubt they could have pulled off a withdrawal in the dead of winter with the fresh Siberian armies of Zhukov on their heels. It would have quickly turned into a route and the Russians would have only been limited by their own logistics as to how fast they could push out the Germans.
Posted on 1/23/21 at 11:06 am to saintsfan92612
quote:
maybe because the winter of 42 was when everything went to shite for the germans and was the one I was talking about
They failed to take Moscow, which you mentioned, in the winter of 1941. They never got close again.
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