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re: For WWII buffs ... FDR and holocaust
Posted on 1/25/14 at 6:10 pm to Zach
Posted on 1/25/14 at 6:10 pm to Zach
Lots of BS there.
The problem wasn't Moslems, it was the US war effort would be hurt if the believe was we were fighting for Jews. Jews hadn't become our best buddies in the world in 1942. Our goal in 1942 was to get other countries to take refugee Jews so we didn't have the problem.
quote:
Between 1933 and 1945 the United States took in only 132,000 Jewish refugees, only ten percent of the quota allowed by law.
Reflecting a nasty strain of anti-Semitism, Congress in 1939 refused to raise immigration quotas to admit 20,000 Jewish children fleeing Nazi oppression.
The problem wasn't Moslems, it was the US war effort would be hurt if the believe was we were fighting for Jews. Jews hadn't become our best buddies in the world in 1942. Our goal in 1942 was to get other countries to take refugee Jews so we didn't have the problem.
1
Posted on 1/25/14 at 6:11 pm to CarrolltonTiger
quote:
There was probably more anti-semitism in the west than in north Africa in 1942,
Good point. He mentioned that Americans had a anti Jewish attitude due to the Depression. Jews were rich in America compared to the rest.
He also said France had a long history of anti-semitism.
FDR wrote a memo to his Jewish advisors/lobbyists that Jews in North Africa had more rights than Muslims in the same countries. That was his reason for not condemning the death camps in 1942 when he was requested to do so.
The author still maintained that the primary reason for FDR not going public with his info on the death camps was his concern about winning the war in Africa.
Posted on 1/25/14 at 6:17 pm to CarrolltonTiger
quote:
Between 1933 and 1945 the United States took in only 132,000 Jewish refugees, only ten percent of the quota allowed by law. Reflecting a nasty strain of anti-Semitism, Congress in 1939 refused to raise immigration quotas to admit 20,000 Jewish children fleeing Nazi oppression. The problem wasn't Moslems, it was the US war effort would be hurt if the believe was we were fighting for Jews. Jews hadn't become our best buddies in the world in 1942. Our goal in 1942 was to get other countries to take refugee Jews so we didn't have the problem.
Uh, CT. That's exactly what I have posted.
Where is the BS?
Posted on 1/25/14 at 6:18 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
Presumption being they knew of the killing operations
Presuming they didn't know is a much larger leap than presuming they did. By '44, there was too much info from too many sources to be able to make a case they didn't know what was going on, although from what I've been able to read into it over the years they had no idea just how efficient and thorough the Nazis were in their extermination efforts.
That said, it doesn't mean they didn't care about it, but like you said they could have not bombed the tracks because it was seen as detrimental to the fight as a whole. But on the other hand, seeing as how Auschwitz was also a source of slave labor for the Nazi war machine, unlike places Treblinka and Sobibor which were about extermination only, taking it out of the picture would have had some tangible results.
Posted on 1/25/14 at 6:26 pm to Sayre
quote:
But on the other hand, seeing as how Auschwitz was also a source of slave labor for the Nazi war machine, unlike places Treblinka and Sobibor which were about extermination only, taking it out of the picture would have had some tangible results.
Ah, that raises another point. In Oct. of 1942 when the US State Dept got evidence of extermination they did not send it up to FDR and the reason given was "why would the Germans kill laborers who work for free?"
A member of the cabinet had to make excuses to the American Jewish Council Repr. He said "We are not dealing with a normal human in Hitler. We are dealing with a mad man. Condemning the atrocities from a Presidential speech would not help the war effort."
Posted on 1/25/14 at 6:28 pm to Zach
quote:
He also said France had a long history of anti-semitism.
French police were used to round up Jews in France for deportation west. They were the ones that went to peoples homes to bring them to the Germans.
On that same note, I was watching an excellent BBC documentary last week that mentioned how the British Bobbies did the same thing in the German occupied Channel islands.
This post was edited on 1/25/14 at 6:33 pm
Posted on 1/25/14 at 6:59 pm to Zach
quote:Great movie and great quote. If I have a favorite movie, LOA is it. That is another post at another time. Here's more dialogue.
It was a great movie.
My favorite line is when he brings the Arab boy into the officer's club after they are dying of thirst crossing the dessert:
"He likes your lemonade."
Ali "Army compass. What if I take it?"
Lawrence "Then you would be a thief."
Ali "Have you no fear English?"
Lawrence "My fear is my concern."
Ali "Truly."
Don't see how Roosevelt had much of a choice and there were probably some Jewish advisors that helped him toe that line, winning the war being the most effective way to end the slaughter.
Posted on 1/25/14 at 7:22 pm to Zach
quote:
Uh, CT. That's exactly what I have posted.
Where is the BS?
He did mention a program designed to allow increased immigration of refugees.
The fact is FDR didn't allow Jews to fill the quotas that were available. Read about the SS
St. Louis.
Posted on 1/25/14 at 10:08 pm to Sayre
quote:
Presuming they didn't know is a much larger leap than presuming they did.
Explain. When did they know, how did they know, and why was it not used at minimum for propaganda purposes?
quote:
By '44, there was too much info from too many sources to be able to make a case they didn't know what was going on
So now it is that they at least knew by 1944, nearly the end of the war. Again, how did they find out and what sources can you provide indicating this?
quote:
although from what I've been able to read into it over the years they had no idea just how efficient and thorough the Nazis were in their extermination efforts.
So now it's that they knew something of Jews being killed but not to what extent. So they really didn't know. Or why and how did they know some of this but not to what extent? This seems to be walking back from the definitive claim of the former statement. Sounds a bit like a contradiction.
For some people (not referencing you, Sayre) WWII revolves entirely around the Holocaust. While a horrific atrocity, it tends to erroneously overshadow the real driving factors between the war's outbreak, conduct, and long term effects. People like Fox Mulder are prone to believe that the war centered around the plight of the Jews and that the whole world was aware of it.
Posted on 1/25/14 at 10:52 pm to Zach
Fallacy.
Why did Muslims in North Africa and the Middle East care about European Jews one way or the other? They were not in their vicinity and Israel was not yet a state.
Why did Muslims in North Africa and the Middle East care about European Jews one way or the other? They were not in their vicinity and Israel was not yet a state.
Posted on 1/25/14 at 11:21 pm to Zach
Interesting topic but I don't see how you can say our military budget is cut to the bone:
You must be one big boned man if you think that's cutting to the bone.
You must be one big boned man if you think that's cutting to the bone.
Posted on 1/26/14 at 9:20 am to Zach
quote:
[in 1942] They were winning the war. We were losing.
No, by 1942 the writing was on the wall, the Germans were going to lose the war.
Outside the gates of Moscow, when Guderian had to stop the advance of his tank corps and assume a defensive position, he noted n his diary that the war was all but lost. The date was December SIXTH, 1941. The very next day...
By the end of 1942 the German 6th Army was surrounded at Stalingrad, and would cease to exist by the end of January, 1943.
As far as bombing rail lines, the RAF first started bombing German rail in 1940. Taking out the German transportation infrastructure was an important strategic consideration.
Towards the end of the war, the Germans were dedicating valuable rail resources to the transportation of Jews to the death camps, often times over military operational considerations.
Posted on 1/26/14 at 9:28 am to ChewyDante
quote:
Explain. When did they know, how did they know,
A better question would be how didn't they know? Whether it was through human intel or reconnaissance photos, the evidence was impossible to miss and to suggest they didn't is disingenuous at best. You act as if you know something about the times. If so, realizing how the Allies knew about what was happening with regard to the Jews is elementary. Anyone saying they know something of the time should be able to find their own sources quite easily.
Take Auschwitz. It's on photos Allied recon planes took. The region was heavy with industries used to support the Nazi war effort and was well recorded. Our analyst were top notch and would have readily known what they were looking at.
But on an even wider level, read up on Jan Karski and tell me what you think.
quote:
So now it is that they at least knew by 1944,
I was talking specifically about the time that Auschwitz was ramping up to the full extermination effort. In '44 there was some of the worst atrocities ahead and some of the fiercest fighting still to come.
quote:
So now it's that they knew something of Jews being killed but not to what extent. So they really didn't know. Or why and how did they know some of this but not to what extent? This seems to be walking back from the definitive claim of the former statement. Sounds a bit like a contradiction.
Don't grasp for straws. I didn't obfuscate what I said.
quote:
it's easy to look back now and double guess every decision made back then and say 'what if'.
quote:
That said, it doesn't mean they didn't care about it, but like you said they could have not bombed the tracks because it was seen as detrimental to the fight as a whole.
Posted on 1/26/14 at 9:30 am to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
Towards the end of the war, the Germans were dedicating valuable rail resources to the transportation of Jews to the death camps, often times over military operational considerations.
And right there you have what is likely the best answer as to why the Allies didn't do more to destroy the camps or impede the Nazis in their efforts.
Posted on 1/26/14 at 12:39 pm to Zach
Anyone who questions why the US didn't do anything about the systematic extermination of the Jews in 1942 has little to no concept of the capabities of the US at that time. FDR had no more ability to have even the slightest influence on this matter than he did on controlling the weather or the tides.
Posted on 1/26/14 at 2:04 pm to Zach
quote:
FDR knew that the Jews were getting exterminated in 1942
You actually believe that? The German military had 22 generals and seven admirals that were up to one-half Jewish.
Posted on 1/26/14 at 2:28 pm to CarrolltonTiger
quote:
Read about the SS St. Louis.
I just saw a show about that on the Hist Channel this morning.
BTW, re: how secret the death camps might have been... the history channel show quoted some writings by US soldiers who liberated Dachau and interviewed the German citizens of the town about the camp. The citizens claimed they had no idea. The US soldiers insisted they were lying. "You couldn't live that close to this facility for years and not know what was going on."
This post was edited on 1/26/14 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 1/26/14 at 2:32 pm to Zach
quote:Detailed nicely in the D.C. Holocaust Museum, btw. Well worth a visit for those who've not been.
Your thoughts?
Posted on 1/26/14 at 2:32 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
Explain. When did they know, how did they know, and why was it not used at minimum for propaganda purposes?
In 1942 FDR was worried about Africa but he did send an emissary to the Pope asking Pius XII to make a proclamation against genocide in Germany. The idea being that the US wouldn't be involved and foreign countries under German influence might get skittish about deporting Jews to Germany. Countries like Poland, France, Norway, Czechs, etc.
Pius said 'no.' In recent times I've read opinions that Pius was not really opposed to the Nazis.
Posted on 1/26/14 at 2:37 pm to AlaTiger
quote:
Why did Muslims in North Africa and the Middle East care about European Jews one way or the other? They were not in their vicinity and Israel was not yet a state.
No, there were LOTS of Jews living amongst the Muslims in Algeria, Tunisia and Morrocco or whatever N. African countries were involved with the British/US expedition. There was also concern by Muslims that Egypt was being considered as a future Jewish state by the Allies.
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