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Posted on 9/7/22 at 1:02 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
Wait. Are you claiming the President does not have plenary power to declassify documents?
No I’m saying none of the cases/language you presented apply to the current matter where Trump turned over 15 boxes of Presidential records to NARA earlier this year. NARA had the records. They were provided because they were *Presidential Records*. End of determination.
This post was edited on 9/7/22 at 1:03 pm
Posted on 9/7/22 at 1:05 pm to Decatur
quote:
No I’m saying none of the cases/language you presented apply to the current matter where Trump turned over 15 boxes of Presidential records to NARA earlier this year. NARA had the records. They were provided because they were *Presidential Records*. End of determination.
Ok. So what is the allegation against Trump? You are saying he sent over docs that were presidential records. Seems like that was cooperation. Especially since he has the ultimate authority to determine what is presidential records and what are personal records. I thought that’s the route you were going. If you are saying he is guilty of something because he had classified docs, that is a losing case. He had plenary power to declassify.
Posted on 9/7/22 at 1:11 pm to BBONDS25
Having the authority to declassify and exercising that authority by order or official disclosure are two separate things. Also, having unauthorized possession of national defense information and failing to deliver it back is another thing.
Posted on 9/7/22 at 1:21 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
Ok. So what is the allegation against Trump? You are saying he sent over docs that were presidential records. Seems like that was cooperation. Especially since he has the ultimate authority to determine what is presidential records and what are personal records. I thought that’s the route you were going. If you are saying he is guilty of something because he had classified docs, that is a losing case. He had plenary power to declassify.
There are two primary allegations:
1) He failed to return all Presidential Records (15 boxes were returned, his lawyer certified it was everything, Someone narked, and FBI raided they found more documents.
There's not much wiggle room here, Presidential Documents are designated as anything materially produced during his presidency that's not personal in nature (e.g. letter to his son, Barron saying congrats on high school).
This could have been avoided if they'd simply done a full scan of the documents in question and not tried to effectively lie to NARA and say, "We have nothing, seriously".
2) Classified documents, this one is more complex, the President can declassify documents but the process for that usually entails signoff/right of response from the originator of the classified material. The President can then overrule any objections to declassifying the material, this is a written formal process.
Either way, I've never heard of it being done "verbally", nor do I see how that would hold up as a sanity test. At that point you're relying on 3rd party hearsay to determine what if anything is declassified.
Regardless, classified or unclassified, none of these documents would be considered "personal" records, and should have been sent to NARA. The fact that they were "potentially" classified just makes it all the worse.
Posted on 9/7/22 at 1:28 pm to Decatur
quote:
Having the authority to declassify and exercising that authority by order or official disclosure are two separate things. Also, having unauthorized possession of national defense information and failing to deliver it back is another thing.
So the argument is that he had the power to declassify, but forgot to? Risky argument, counselor.
This post was edited on 9/7/22 at 1:34 pm
Posted on 9/7/22 at 1:28 pm to Decatur
quote:
Having the authority to declassify and exercising that authority by order or official disclosure are two separate things. Also, having unauthorized possession of national defense information and failing to deliver it back is another thing.
You are all over the place. You are a mess.
Posted on 9/7/22 at 1:30 pm to Texaggie96
quote:
He failed to return all Presidential Records (15 boxes were returned, his lawyer certified it was everything, Someone narked, and FBI raided they found more documents. There's not much wiggle room here, Presidential Documents are designated as anything materially produced during his presidency that's not personal in nature (e.g. letter to his son, Barron saying congrats on high school). This could have been avoided if they'd simply done a full scan of the documents in question and not tried to effectively lie to NARA and say, "We have nothing, seriously".
The Armstrong cases and the Clinton sock drawer case make it clear the final authority and arbiter of what is personal and what is presidential is the President.
quote:
) Classified documents, this one is more complex, the President can declassify documents but the process for that usually entails signoff/right of response from the originator of the classified material. The President can then overrule any objections to declassifying the material, this is a written formal process.
There is no formal process for the president. His power to declassify is plenary.
quote:
Regardless, classified or unclassified, none of these documents would be considered "personal" records, and should have been sent to NARA. The fact that they were "potentially" classified just makes it all the worse.
Not NARAs call. Solely the call of the President.
This post was edited on 9/7/22 at 1:31 pm
Posted on 9/7/22 at 2:06 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
Not NARAs call. Solely the call of the President.
What is considered personal is defined within the PRA. The President can not simply declare everything he's decided to pack up and take home "personal".
(3) The term "personal records" means all documentary materials, or any reasonably segregable portion thereof, of a purely private or nonpublic character which do not relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. Such term includes--
(A) diaries, journals, or other personal notes serving as the functional equivalent of a diary or journal which are not prepared or utilized for, or circulated or communicated in the course of, transacting Government business;
(B) materials relating to private political associations, and having no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; and
(C) materials relating exclusively to the President’s own election to the office of the Presidency; and materials directly relating to the election of a particular individual or individuals to Federal, State, or local office, which have no relation to or direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President.
Posted on 9/7/22 at 2:11 pm to BBONDS25
Posted on 9/7/22 at 2:50 pm to Jjdoc
Did Trump leak that he had classified documents himself with the plan of baiting them to overreach and abuse executive power? I mean, it would be a pretty brilliant move and based upon what they “found” it seems like this may be the case
Posted on 9/7/22 at 2:54 pm to Texaggie96
quote:
What is considered personal is defined within the PRA. The President can not simply declare everything he's decided to pack up and take home "personal".
He actually can. And it is likely not even subject to judicial review. Though that part isn’t as clear. Per uncontested court precedent (Armstrong and the Clinton tapes case). That isn’t what happened here, though. He allowed them to come and take whatever they wanted. They had unfettered access.
This post was edited on 9/7/22 at 2:58 pm
Posted on 9/7/22 at 3:57 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
He actually can. And it is likely not even subject to judicial review. Though that part isn’t as clear. Per uncontested court precedent (Armstrong and the Clinton tapes case). That isn’t what happened here, though. He allowed them to come and take whatever they wanted. They had unfettered access.
He can certainly try. Honestly I'd love to have popcorn at the hearing where he tries to explain how hundreds of classified documents are his Personal Records vs Presidential Records.
If he wrote that many classified documents, he's a prodigious writer indeed.
Posted on 9/7/22 at 4:01 pm to Texaggie96
quote:
He can certainly try. Honestly I'd love to have popcorn at the hearing where he tries to explain how hundreds of classified documents are his Personal Records vs Presidential Records.
Read the cases. He has final word. No question. Decatur posted a link to one of them in this thread. He may or may not be subject to judicial review, but it certainly wouldn’t be a criminal case. I know you don’t like it and it doesn’t make sense to you, but that doesn’t really matter. The law is pretty clear. At least to the 4 judges that have opined.
Much like your disbelief in the President’s ability to declassify whatever he wants in any manner he wants. You don’t like it. It doesn’t make sense to you, but it is the way it is. Your opinions don’t change well-settled law.
This post was edited on 9/7/22 at 4:05 pm
Posted on 9/7/22 at 4:05 pm to Texaggie96
Then I guess Hilldog and Odumma are also in the same boat as far as this goes. Someone go get theirs and make them public. Same is same, same rules for all right?
Unless you're a spineless, cowardly, ignorant Dem jackass............then the rules don't apply.
Unless you're a spineless, cowardly, ignorant Dem jackass............then the rules don't apply.
Posted on 9/7/22 at 4:08 pm to Texaggie96
Why are y’all still arguing over this?
Let it go. You are wrong. Everyone knows this.
Let it go. You are wrong. Everyone knows this.
Posted on 9/7/22 at 4:12 pm to Jjdoc
Biden WH undoubtedly ordered it. Probably not Biden himself. He doesn't even know where Mar-a-Lago is.
Posted on 9/7/22 at 4:20 pm to BBONDS25
quote:
Much like your disbelief in the President’s ability to declassify whatever he wants in any manner he wants. You don’t like it. It doesn’t make sense to you, but it is the way it is. Your opinions don’t change well-settled law.
This is why we are supposed to have free and fair elections. The president holds a lot of power in this regard alone.
All these dipshits that want to overlook the cheating just to get rid of Trump don’t comprehend what Biden has at his disposal now.
Posted on 9/7/22 at 4:23 pm to Jjdoc
Sounds like running interference on your political opponent.
Impeach 46!
Impeach 46!
Posted on 9/7/22 at 4:51 pm to Texaggie96
quote:
where he tries to explain
Can you be honest and try to guess how many gotcha moments we’ve had in the last six years. It’s always an anonymous leaker. We know these are some of the comrades of the disgraced seventh floor FBI resistance.
Did you ever get tired of Madcow or lemon head rubbing their hands with glee. Got him now. Acosta completely showing his arse.
Trump has been disrespected and attacked more than any President in my life time. Most of his supporters like him for the same reasons his detractors hate him. He fights back.
You would know for sure if you had enjoyed water sports with Russian hookers. I bet you would be pissed if someone had gone on international news making those claims about you. What would your loved ones thought.
Maybe we all should wait and see if it is a true spy compiled analysis, or a general brief before his meeting with Kim kept as a memento. Both are possible with many other explanations.
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