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Message
re: FDR, Pearl Harbor, The “Great Man” Myth And The True Historical Record…
Posted on 12/13/25 at 11:30 am to Narax
Posted on 12/13/25 at 11:30 am to Narax
The factors that force the Japanese into war which have not been covered:
1st religion, the code of bushido, in that code you cannot lose face.
a. There is no backing down.
b. You cannot betray the Emperor, your homeland, your job, your family.
1. IF you are seen to backdown, this breaks rule b.
So, the Japanese can never give up land they fought and bleed for and save face.
2nd how much oil was in reserve in Japan in August 1941?
a. It is not much and not even enough to fight to fight an 18-month war.
3rd how much metric tons of shipping a year does it take to keep Japan running on its normal production rate of 1940?
a. And how much steel is needed in August 1941 to complete it fleet building program?
b. Where does the ships come from that fill the shipping needs of Japan come from and the steal?
1. This factors in after the war starts, as the Japanese did not plan this part and have to start a 100-ship building program in 1942 due to the massive, short fall of shipping.
4th How much aluminum does Japan need to build aircraft and where does it come from?
What is the plan and goals of the Peral Harbor raid?
Why did the Japanese plan a short war?
And what date did the plan for the attack on Peral Harbor begin?
1st religion, the code of bushido, in that code you cannot lose face.
a. There is no backing down.
b. You cannot betray the Emperor, your homeland, your job, your family.
1. IF you are seen to backdown, this breaks rule b.
So, the Japanese can never give up land they fought and bleed for and save face.
2nd how much oil was in reserve in Japan in August 1941?
a. It is not much and not even enough to fight to fight an 18-month war.
3rd how much metric tons of shipping a year does it take to keep Japan running on its normal production rate of 1940?
a. And how much steel is needed in August 1941 to complete it fleet building program?
b. Where does the ships come from that fill the shipping needs of Japan come from and the steal?
1. This factors in after the war starts, as the Japanese did not plan this part and have to start a 100-ship building program in 1942 due to the massive, short fall of shipping.
4th How much aluminum does Japan need to build aircraft and where does it come from?
What is the plan and goals of the Peral Harbor raid?
Why did the Japanese plan a short war?
And what date did the plan for the attack on Peral Harbor begin?
2
Posted on 12/13/25 at 11:40 am to tigger1
quote:
The factors that force the Japanese into war which have not been covered:
Did you ever find the title to that book?
Posted on 12/13/25 at 11:50 am to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
Not only does nothing I stated in subsequent posts* contradict the stated premise, but my subsequent comments have reinforced and bolstered the primary argument.
quote:
So despite intercepting a secret communique from the Japanese high command informing Germany of an imminent attack on Anglo-American military forces, the Roosevelt Administration failed to notify the military command of the escalating situation? If this omission was not a deliberate act of military sabotage, it most certainly constitutes a severe case of gross criminal negligence.
Shown multiple times that US military command was notified and actively preparing for an attack.
quote:
In short, the Roosevelt Administration deceptively told the public that FDR had endeavored to sustain peace with Japan when in truth the Roosevelt administration was debating how to provoke Japan. The Roosevelt Administration further identified scapegoats who could be held responsible for their own failure to alert the military command of the high probability of an impending Japanese attack.
Again: Shown multiple times that US military command was notified and actively preparing for an attack.
Also shown how the US was actively trying to delay the start of the war due to the military not being ready.
You can make up your own theories, but the documents don't support it.
You want to make people believe this, but it's like a kid who is wearing knockoff JAIR JORKANS, he can insist those are Nikes, he can even try to shift the conversation to how his socks are Nike, but everyone in the schoolyard knows, even his friends who defend him.
Posted on 12/13/25 at 12:14 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
Again, after the strategic losses the allies had suffered in the weeks and months after Pearl Harbor, the American public was looking for a heroic figure to rally around and MacArthur perfectly fit that bill.
He would not have if the public knew of his catastrophic failures.
quote:
To make clear, this is not meant as a defense of MacArthur. I am simply highlighting the complex and often deceptive political maneuvering that can occur in wartime scenarios, where leaders aim to maintain morale or public support by manipulation through narrative building.
Where is this rationale for FDR?
That's the whole reason I brought up MacArthur.
Both men were raging assholes, but FDR gets blamed for Hawaii, while MacArthur gets lionized for being caught with his pants down in the Philippines.
But you didn't address my point of a sovereign nation having the freedom to choose who they will or will not trade with. We should be free to decide to stop selling war materiel to a nation if we don't like what they're doing with it. To say it was a provocation is just political bullshite.
Would you accuse Trump of provoking a war with China if he cut off all trade with them that helps them achieve any kind of military superiority over us? I wouldn't, just as I wouldn't consider it an act of war on the part of the Chinese if they decided to stop all exports of rare earth elements to us. We shouldn't make ourselves dependent on one nation for critical strategic resources. And we certainly shouldn't allow ourselves to be victims of economic extortion through threat of violence.
Posted on 12/13/25 at 1:24 pm to Harry Boutte
Harry Boutte I knew many soldiers in the Philippians in 1941, and they all blamed MacArthur.
One of the Marines I Knew was over 102 when he passed away about 12 years ago, he bought up the same question they all did, why are our aircraft on the field long after Peral was attack.
He was General Wainwright's bodyguard before the war and just before the outbreak of the war was stationed in Manila. He saw action on Corregidor and was on the point of one leg of the Japanese invasion. There is a book on him written by his son.
Dug out Doug didn't get that name for no reason and MacArthur combat style and tactics on the Philippines would have gotten any general fired.
Remember Doug gets all the magic interceptions in the Philippines before the war starts.
None of the soldiers I knew from WWII had a high opinion of him.
One of the Marines I Knew was over 102 when he passed away about 12 years ago, he bought up the same question they all did, why are our aircraft on the field long after Peral was attack.
He was General Wainwright's bodyguard before the war and just before the outbreak of the war was stationed in Manila. He saw action on Corregidor and was on the point of one leg of the Japanese invasion. There is a book on him written by his son.
Dug out Doug didn't get that name for no reason and MacArthur combat style and tactics on the Philippines would have gotten any general fired.
Remember Doug gets all the magic interceptions in the Philippines before the war starts.
None of the soldiers I knew from WWII had a high opinion of him.
This post was edited on 12/13/25 at 1:53 pm
Posted on 12/13/25 at 1:41 pm to Harry Boutte
quote:
He would not have if the public knew of his catastrophic failures.
That was my point: the press served as an instrument of wartime propaganda and chose to focus on MacArthur’s promise to return rather than focus on the ignominious loss.
MacArthur’s evacuation from the Philippines — which signified a major strategic defeat for the U.S. war effort — was instead lauded as being emblematic of MacArthur’s defiant and resolute character.
quote:
Where is this rationale for FDR?
Reread the OP. The whole premise of this thread is that the political manipulation of narratives is a common outcome of war.
quote:
To say it was a provocation is just political bullshite.
Well, any trade policies dictated by the whims of a President necessarily involves a political component.
Japan became only more belligerent after the full embargo and freezing of it’s financial assets in 1941.
The point here is trade barriers often do not achieve their political aims, leading to unintended consequences or heightened conflicts.
This post was edited on 12/13/25 at 2:50 pm
Posted on 12/13/25 at 2:35 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
The point here is trade barriers often do not achieve their political aims, leading to unintended consequences or heightened conflicts.
Well, good, I'm glad we can agree that FDR's actions vis-a-vis Japan were generally reasonable and correct at the time, and not a part of some provocative conspiracy intended to draw the US into war. That wasn't made clear in your OP. After all, your apparent premise of:
quote:
generations of Americans have been formally taught in government schools that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor constituted an unprovoked act of Japanese aggression that caught the United States and the Roosevelt administration entirely by surprise.
..was belied by my grandfather's actions in the late 1930s as he drilled his Boy Scout troop, preparing them for the coming war. Intelligent Americans saw it coming, and prepared accordingly.
And after all, as we have agreed, not willing to be victims of economic extortion through threat of violence should not be considered "provocative".
Posted on 12/13/25 at 2:48 pm to tigger1
quote:
1st religion, the code of bushido, in that code you cannot lose face. a. There is no backing down. b. You cannot betray the Emperor, your homeland, your job, your family. 1. IF you are seen to backdown, this breaks rule b. So, the Japanese can never give up land they fought and bleed for and save face.
I did make a brief mention of Japan’s militaristic culture above. Certainly many of the failures that led to Pearl Harbor were because of the vast cultural differences between the two nations.
It is interesting to note that Japan offered to retreat from French Indochina as part of a negotiated settlement with the United States. Such a concession no doubt was made over strong objections by the more militaristic factions in the Japanese High Command.
quote:
2nd how much oil was in reserve in Japan in August 1941? a. It is not much and not even enough to fight to fight an 18-month war. 3rd how much metric tons of shipping a year does it take to keep Japan running on its normal production rate of 1940? a. And how much steel is needed in August 1941 to complete it fleet building program? b. Where does the ships come from that fill the shipping needs of Japan come from and the steal? 1. This factors in after the war starts, as the Japanese did not plan this part and have to start a 100-ship building program in 1942 due to the massive, short fall of shipping.
After 4 long years of war with China, Japan was in dire economic straits. The Japanese invasion of French Indochina was a resource grab.
Posted on 12/13/25 at 2:49 pm to Harry Boutte
Harry Boutte to give you some hope the Marine Corps even going into the 1990's hated Doug.
This is due to the total waste of manpower and blood in the Battle of Peleliu/
They tried to get the operation cancelled three days before the landing.
This operation was to cover the flank of Doug's attack towards the Philippines. This island like the Philippines' could have been bypassed.
And I Knew many a Marine who fought in this meat grinder of a battle, including Snafu from the Pacific, none of them would have given a dime to him.
This is due to the total waste of manpower and blood in the Battle of Peleliu/
They tried to get the operation cancelled three days before the landing.
This operation was to cover the flank of Doug's attack towards the Philippines. This island like the Philippines' could have been bypassed.
And I Knew many a Marine who fought in this meat grinder of a battle, including Snafu from the Pacific, none of them would have given a dime to him.
Posted on 12/13/25 at 2:57 pm to tigger1
The guy ordered the last cavalry charge on horseback in US Army history against WWI US Army veterans (and their families) who were only demanding their back pay. Disgraceful.
Posted on 12/13/25 at 2:58 pm to Toomer Deplorable
Toomer Deplorable
It is the shipping the Japanese planners did not take into account.
There is a short fall of over 6.5 million metric tons of shipping to start.
The Japanese had to use shipping for these invasions and supply support.
They are so far behind by March of 1942, many of their commands are on their on for weeks on end with no supplies.
Many commands had to grow they're on food.
This was why the rush in early 1942 to build 100 supply and support ships.
Nimitz hit on the right key to win the war at the start, sink the shipping.
It is the shipping the Japanese planners did not take into account.
There is a short fall of over 6.5 million metric tons of shipping to start.
The Japanese had to use shipping for these invasions and supply support.
They are so far behind by March of 1942, many of their commands are on their on for weeks on end with no supplies.
Many commands had to grow they're on food.
This was why the rush in early 1942 to build 100 supply and support ships.
Nimitz hit on the right key to win the war at the start, sink the shipping.
This post was edited on 12/13/25 at 3:32 pm
Posted on 12/13/25 at 3:03 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
The “Great Man” Myth
Dang. . .I was hoping for a "Great Man" vs "Trends and Forces" dialog
Posted on 12/13/25 at 4:00 pm to Narax
quote:
Shown multiple times that US military command was notified and actively preparing for an attack.
This yet another straw man argument. You couldn’t construct a coherent rebuttal if it came with LEGO instructions and a free cup of coffee.
Posted on 12/13/25 at 4:34 pm to Toomer Deplorable
My great uncle died at Hickam Field that fateful day. This pisses me off.
Posted on 12/13/25 at 4:46 pm to tigger1
quote:
Nimitz hit on the right key to win the war at the start, sink the shipping.
One of Admiral Nimitz’s greatest innovations was repurposing submarines — originally intended as advance scouts for the Pacific Fleet — and adapting them into attack vessels. More than half of all Japanese merchant ships were sunk by the submarine fleet.
This was more than the total sunk by Navy carriers, Army aircraft, Navy land-based aircraft, and other means combined. By encouraging this shift, Nimitz transformed the submarines into a critical component of his strategic goal to “strangle” Japan’s war-making capabilities, thereby cutting off essential resources needed to continue the war effort.
Posted on 12/13/25 at 5:06 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
This yet another straw man argument.
So you admit that saying US Military installations were not forewarned about imminent Japanese attacks across the Pacific would be a very easy to defeat argument just by utilizing historical records.
Because only a fool would claim that Washington was trying to not warn them.
A complete fool...
Posted on 12/13/25 at 5:18 pm to Narax
quote:
So you admit that saying US Military installations were not forewarned about imminent Japanese attacks across the Pacific would be a very easy to defeat argument just by utilizing historical records.
You’ve replied with another straw man yet are too stupid to realize it. You are such a simpering dullard.
Posted on 12/13/25 at 5:20 pm to tigger1
quote:
He was General Wainwright's bodyguard before the war and just before the outbreak of the war was stationed in Manila. He saw action on Corregidor and was on the point of one leg of the Japanese invasion. There is a book on him written by his son.
Does this book have a name?
Posted on 12/13/25 at 5:24 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
You’ve replied with another straw man yet are too stupid to realize it
You do realize that you sawing Straw man concedes the discussion on the point I've made.
It's the definition of strawman.
quote:
Straw man argument is the distortion of someone else’s argument to make it easier to attack or refute. Instead of addressing the actual argument of the opponent, one may present a somewhat similar but not equal argument.
By calling out something as a strawman, you concede that that you also agree that would be a weak argument.
So good to know that you agree that the Pacific military installations were warned about Japanese attacks being imminent.
Glad you agree that Washington warned them.
Posted on 12/13/25 at 5:35 pm to Narax
quote:
You do realize that you sawing Straw man concedes the discussion on the point I've made.
It's the definition of strawman.
You certainly don’t. You are arguing about things I never said. That is the definition of a straw man argument you blithering nitwit.
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