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ELI5: why is Ukraine so important to our elected officials?

Posted on 10/7/19 at 9:35 am
Posted by FalseProphet
Mecca
Member since Dec 2011
11723 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 9:35 am
Biden asks them to dig up dirt. Trump wants them to suss out corruption. How did an Eastern European country become a central figure in our democracy?
Posted by Rebel
Graceland
Member since Jan 2005
143735 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 9:38 am to
Seems like it was a good revenue source for democrats to fatten their wallets with.
Posted by alatxtgr
The Nation of Texas
Member since Sep 2006
2404 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 9:38 am to
quote:

How did an Eastern European country become a central figure in our Republic?
Soros was kicked out of Hungary and moved shop to Ukraine...
Posted by ItTakesAThief
Scottsdale, Arizona
Member since Dec 2009
10730 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 9:38 am to
They had money to spend and a fluid political situation and needed US foreign aid dollars which was funneled back through sweetheart deals and contracts to politicians and those who control them.
Posted by Tchefuncte Tiger
Bat'n Rudge
Member since Oct 2004
63358 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 9:39 am to
Because it's a cash cow, ripe for the pickings, for corrupt American politicians.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138579 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 9:39 am to
quote:

How did an Eastern European country become a central figure in our democracy?
The explanation is one spicy Chalupa
Posted by BeefDawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4747 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 9:58 am to
quote:

Soros was kicked out of Hungary and moved shop to Ukraine...
^^This.

It's a hub for geo-political globalist corruption.

It's got a ton of a very rich commodity and it's in the epicenter of damn near everything in the eastern hemisphere, and a very loosely run government full of wannabe elitists who tend to be extremely receptive to the highest bidders.

Lots of banks, lots of multi-national corporations, and hundreds of billions of dollars flowing through there. And not a very significant intelligence and law enforcement apparatus that cares.

It's a criminal's wet dream playground.
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
11844 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 9:59 am to
And of course, the reason Chalupa started digging was because Trump hired a man who'd re-habilitated the political career of a pro-Russian Ukrainian politician named Victor Yanukovych who's hiding out on Moscow because he's wanted for his role in the Maidan killings and a massive theft of the Ukrainian people.

I say, "hired", but of course DJT never paid Manafort, (just as he's not paying Guiliani now). Manafort was trying to get back into the good graces of his patrons in Eastern Europe.

Did you see that Giuliani consulted with Paul on all this business?
Posted by Bunyan
He/Him
Member since Oct 2016
20931 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 10:05 am to
So why did the DNC and Chalupa have to dig up manufactured dirt on Trump and Manafort (black ledger)?
quote:

the reason Chalupa started digging

And btw, I thought colluding with foreign governments to dig up dirt on your political opponents was harming national security and treasonous??
Posted by bamarep
Member since Nov 2013
52554 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 10:12 am to
The reason is the Ukraine is/was corrupt as hell. It's like setting up a corporation in Delaware, there's just not much oversight.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
74106 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 10:21 am to
Doc, manafort’s presence in Ukraine was a lot more complicated than you make it out to be.

He was actually trying to get Ukraine into a more pro-EU stance

The issue was the shady method of payments.
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
11844 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 10:25 am to
You're quite right. It's a good example on why we should have stronger laws against foreign interference in elections.

But of course, Paul was a counterintelligence target long before he got ensnared back in American politics. His whole career was built on giving oligarch-supported and authoritarian pols the sheen of democratic legitimacy.

The irony of post-1989 is that while Eastern Europe started to imitate many of our norms and institutions, we're importing their politics here and it's not pretty.
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
11844 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 10:29 am to
Yanukovych's comeback after the color revolution was built on his supposedly buying into moving Ukraine into the Euro-sphere. Paul Manafort knew exactly how to burnish his rep with pro-western Ukrainians (as well as in Brussels and Washington), but Yanukovych backed out, had his own people shot in the streets and now he's cooling his heels in Moscow because he'll be arrested if he sets foot back in Ukraine. Meanwhile Paul is sitting in jail and Rudy has been picking Paul's brain about how to get into the biz of servicing garchs.
This post was edited on 10/7/19 at 10:35 am
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
74106 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 10:34 am to
Ukrainian politics makes American politics look like a 5 year old’s tea party.
Posted by TigerDoc
Texas
Member since Apr 2004
11844 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 10:38 am to
Agree. We'd all do better by exporting our politics there than importing their politics here.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
74106 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 10:40 am to
Btw, Andy McCarthy’s new book has an excellent introductory chapter in Ukraine and why it seems to have an outsized role.

Basically after the collapse of the ussr, Ukraine became a hotbed boon for western lobbyists. Oligarchs in that nation would pay a pretty penny to have their reputations praised and polished in DC.

Pretty fascinating stuff, actually. The amount of DC sleazebags (both parties) who got involved is startling.
Posted by yatesdog38
in your head rent free
Member since Sep 2013
12737 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 11:05 am to
Russia is trying to rebuild the USSR. Currently Ukraine is a centerpiece, because of proximity to allied forces, and abundant natural resources to mobilize for the war machine.

We live in perpetual conflict driven by greed. It is the way of man and power. which side are you on and where are the lines drawn? (this is my tag line for a new video game)
Posted by yatesdog38
in your head rent free
Member since Sep 2013
12737 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 11:10 am to
I'm gonna be a little bit of a grammar nerd... a lot of money isn't flowing through Ukraine. That is the last stop. It is flowing through Cyprus, and Turkey, Bermuda, Jersey Island, and then last stop is Ukraine. They wash it a little bit first.
Posted by NC_Tigah
Make Orwell Fiction Again
Member since Sep 2003
138579 posts
Posted on 10/7/19 at 2:00 pm to
quote:

And of course, the reason Chalupa started digging was because Trump hired a man who'd re-habilitated the political career of a pro-Russian Ukrainian politician named Victor Yanukovych who's hiding out on Moscow because he's wanted for his role in the Maidan killings and a massive theft of the Ukrainian people.
No. First off, Chalupa wasn't digging. She was asking Ukrainian officials to interfere in the 2016 election. Ukrainian Courts agreed, and found that Chalupa and Dems had been successful in eliciting Ukraine interference.

With regard to Yanukovych and Manafort, here's some pertinent info:
quote:

As Chalupa was pursuing these channels, the Clinton campaign stepped up its efforts to find foreign dirt on Trump by hiring the Washington, D.C., firm Fusion GPS that March to compile and distribute opposition research on Trump. One of the company’s co-founders, Glenn Simpson, was a former Wall Street Journal reporter who had written several articles about Manafort’s work for former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

In a 2007 article, Simpson wrote that Yanukovych “favors closer ties with [Russian President Vladimir] Putin’s administration.”

That view would inform much of the operation to come. It would use Manafort’s close ties to Yanukovych as the kernel of truth from which grew the vast Russiagate conspiracy.
...

After Yanukovych became president in 2010, Manafort recommended that he draw closer to the European Union with a trade deal. Putin saw that as a threat, and gave Yanukovych a choice between crippling economic measures and a $15 billion aid package.

Ultimately, Yanukovych rejected Manafort’s advice, bowing to Putin in late 2013, touching off protests in the Ukrainian capital that led to deadly violence.

That turmoil started a new chapter in U.S.-Ukraine relations as the Obama White House made then Vice President Joe Biden the point man on the issue.

Biden had known Yanukovych since 2009 and spoke with him frequently during the crisis.

The Obama administration, however, had little confidence in Yanukovych. State Department officials on the ground the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv, including Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland scrambled to piece together a coalition government. Yanukovych fled his country for sanctuary in Russia in February 2014, just days after his final phone call with Biden, when government snipers killed at least 88 protesters in the capital.
...

Here’s where the politics get even more interesting. Burisma’s owner was not a reformer, but an ally of the just-exiled Yanukovych, having served as his minister of natural resources. Despite the Biden family’s financial relationship with the Yanukovych circle, Clinton operatives painted Manafort’s association with Yanukovych as evidence of the Trump campaign’s pro-Putin sentiments.
...

One source for the Times story was former Ukrainian parliamentarian Serhiy Leshchenko, also referred to in the whistleblower complaint. According to former Fusion GPS contractor Nellie Ohr, Leshchenko was a source for Fusion GPS as well.
and then there's this . . .
quote:

But Ukraine’s new starring role was still to come. The Intelligence Community’s Inspector General relayed the newly disclosed “whistleblower” complaint from the CIA analyst to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence during a transitional period. Both DNI Dan Coats and Deputy Director Sue Gordon had just resigned when the whistleblower’s complaint reached Acting DNI Joseph Maguire on Aug. 16, his first day on the job.

Previously, the ICIG’s whistleblower’s form required first-hand knowledge of the reported concern to file a complaint. The updated form, which was “revised after press inquiries” regarding the whistleblower’s complaint, eliminated the requirement of first-hand knowledge. The CIA officer’s complaint appears to provide only hearsay.
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