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Message
re: Conservatism doesn’t always equal Christianity
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:20 pm to BiteMe2020
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:20 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
Indeed you can. Read Aquinas.
Fine, make the case. It's like saying you can use logic to prove that pink is prettier than blue.
2
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:22 pm to Bayoubred
"does scripture teach that we should be willing to fight to be free?"
Actually the opposite. Freedom comes in surrender to Christ.
"Our should we only rely on non-violent political means to achieve it?"
If Christ has set you free then the politics don't matter much. You are just as free under totalitarianism as you are under democracy when you are in Christ. Our only call is to love. Although we can protect ourselves in defense. We should never go on the attack.
"was the American Revolution and/or the Civil War a righteous armed conflict?"
Tough one! If the Revolution was about paying taxes then I would say it was not a righteous war (give to Ceasar what is Caeser's and give to God what is God's). If the Civil War was about setting slaves free, then it sure seems right, but I can't reference a scripture that says that's our job. We are to love, but can we love by going to war?
"I think freedom must be, and should be, obtained and protected with the lives of those who seek it."
We were not called into political freedom but spiritual freedom. It seems that if Jesus would have wanted political freedom, he would have fought against Rome.
Actually the opposite. Freedom comes in surrender to Christ.
"Our should we only rely on non-violent political means to achieve it?"
If Christ has set you free then the politics don't matter much. You are just as free under totalitarianism as you are under democracy when you are in Christ. Our only call is to love. Although we can protect ourselves in defense. We should never go on the attack.
"was the American Revolution and/or the Civil War a righteous armed conflict?"
Tough one! If the Revolution was about paying taxes then I would say it was not a righteous war (give to Ceasar what is Caeser's and give to God what is God's). If the Civil War was about setting slaves free, then it sure seems right, but I can't reference a scripture that says that's our job. We are to love, but can we love by going to war?
"I think freedom must be, and should be, obtained and protected with the lives of those who seek it."
We were not called into political freedom but spiritual freedom. It seems that if Jesus would have wanted political freedom, he would have fought against Rome.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:23 pm to Flats
quote:
No, I wouldn't. Logic and values are two different spheres.
Not really. For instance, you've made a factual claim above. We can examine this logically. Have you made a value claim? Yes, you have. But you've also asserted a statement of truth, that "logic and values are two different things". If you believe this to be true, then you're engaging in an argument for which you necessarily need to provide a logical defense.
You cannot have it both ways.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 2:27 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:28 pm to T1
quote:
We should never go on the attack.
Jesus might disagree with you there. He gave arguments all the time for his way of thinking. Putting forth an argument is indeed a form of attack.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:30 pm to T1
quote:
We are to love, but can we love by going to war?
Yes. I don't know about you, but I'd certainly "go to war" against a home intruder with a knife who's about to go into my daughter's room.
I know we're talking about completely different scales of conflict, but is it really so different?
Long story short, yes, war can be justified using Christian values and beliefs. The Catholic Church actually has this written down. It's called the Just War Doctrine.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:32 pm to Flats
quote:
Fine, make the case. It's like saying you can use logic to prove that pink is prettier than blue.
Art is the most difficult of notions to discern logically, but people do this all the time.
Someone who sings out of tune, or plays notes that are not within an accepted scale are correctly determined to be wrong.
The issue with art, or as you put it, "pink vs. blue" is subjective only to the extent humans are ignorant of the foundational structure behind artistic beauty.
You, no doubt, can recognize someone who sings off key, or out of tune and you judge them worse than someone who sings in key. This isn't by accident.
That the math is hard, does not make it subjective. And the math is definitely harder when grading art.
It's akin to asking whether someone thinks that the third derivative of motion is change in acceleration. In physics, this can be determined easily. In art, it can be determined less easily. That does not logically necessitate subjectivism.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 2:35 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:33 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
The answer might be something along the lines of "God intended humans to use their intellect to guide their moral decisions, the highest moral decision being to glorify God. As a human, as opposed to a cow, this entail using the logical faculty of reason to discern right from wrong. Since alcohol inhibits the logical faculties, it indeed is a sin in excess.
And if I don't believe in God or don't care what God thinks, then it's logical for me to drink to excess if that's what makes me happy. Your value there is caring about what God thinks, and you can use logic and go from there. But if someone doesn't care about the same core things as you, then their logic will take them in a different direction. You can use logic to act in a moral way, but you can't use it to determine what that way should be in the first place.
I'm a Christian and I believe in objective morality. My job is to figure out what that objective morality is and live by those values. But if someone's an atheist, then my logic doesn't work for them because our base values are different. And no matter what I believe to be true, I can't prove to them that my beliefs are anything but my opinion, nor can they prove theirs to me.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:34 pm to BiteMe2020
"Putting forth an argument is indeed a form of attack."
Agree, we can try to persuade, but we should not persuade through violence.
Agree, we can try to persuade, but we should not persuade through violence.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:36 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
Someone who sings out of tune, or plays notes that are not within an accepted scale are correctly determined to be wrong.
Not in a moral sense. They're wrong in them same way that calling an orange a grape is wrong; their definitions don't fit the standard. But that's not a moral issue. It's incorrect to sing out of tune, it's not evil.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:36 pm to T1
quote:
"Putting forth an argument is indeed a form of attack."
Agree, we can try to persuade, but we should not persuade through violence.
Disagreeing, and polemics, are not a form of physical violence. So it's up to us to continue to use logic as conservatives, to make out points.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:37 pm to UGATiger26
Defense is okay. Jesus told his disciples to get a sword the night he was to be arrested. (but then he chastised Peter for attacking someone with it).
It's hard to think of an instance when Jesus preached that we should go on an offensive war over something. He sure didn't. He will in the future though... maybe we are supposed to leave it up to him?
It's hard to think of an instance when Jesus preached that we should go on an offensive war over something. He sure didn't. He will in the future though... maybe we are supposed to leave it up to him?
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:38 pm to Flats
quote:
And if I don't believe in God or don't care what God thinks, then it's logical for me to drink to excess if that's what makes me happy. Your value there is caring about what God thinks, and you can use logic and go from there. But if someone doesn't care about the same core things as you, then their logic will take them in a different direction. You can use logic to act in a moral way, but you can't use it to determine what that way should be in the first place.
If someone cares less about what I think, and rejects an objective standard for determining such, then they are giving away their right to argue that they are correct.
Sucks for them. If it's all subjective in the end, then Hitler is only wrong by virtue of him having lost the physical war.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:44 pm to T1
quote:
It's hard to think of an instance when Jesus preached that we should go on an offensive war over something. He sure didn't. He will in the future though... maybe we are supposed to leave it up to him?
Yep. The only time Jesus resorted to violence was his anger over Pharisees using his Father’s house for merchandising.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:47 pm to BiteMe2020
quote:
If someone cares less about what I think, and rejects an objective standard for determining such,
I don't know why anybody would care what you think (maybe that's a typo?) but the second half of that is my entire point. People who claim that their morality is based on logic are claiming an objective standard that doesn't exist. You can't use logic and logic alone to derive a moral code. It can't be done.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:49 pm to T1
quote:
It's hard to think of an instance when Jesus preached that we should go on an offensive war over something.
I would certainly agree that Jesus would condemn in no uncertain terms waging war unprovoked.
But how would you define "offensive?"
Given that it was Japan that bombed Pearl Harbor, was the U.S. being "offensive" when they sent troops to Europe in WWII? Honest question.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 2:51 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 2:59 pm to UGATiger26
Our government was not designed to be a Christian government. The Bible seems to indicate that God ordains all governments and therefore he has the right to use our military any way he chooses in order to enact his justice on nations. He will send an army against America if we need that. I guess I'm saying the government has a different role for God than the individual has. Should Christians join the military? I think so because that only makes them a vessel for God's use.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 3:03 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 3:21 pm to Revelator
quote:
Conservatism doesn’t always equal Christianity
And it shouldn't. Like yourself they somewhat, overlap I assume.
quote:
Ultimately, my allegiances aren’t to a country, president or even to the constitution, but to God
And when/if they erase him, what then? You will still be able to worship but, will you worship openly and not defend yourself?
Faith and belief are 2 very different things.
Look at the story of Crist itself. His crucifixion was absolutely politically motivated under Pontius Pilate. He chose to turn the other cheek. He did what he was born to do. "The lamb of God". Supposedly took all sin away.
I'm not a Christian. Things didn't work for me as alter boy at a Catholic school. I've read the bible several times trying to find some clarity, something to grasp onto.
I am a conservative and value privacy. Less is more when it comes to government.
When it comes to service or serving others, I'll lend a hand up, not a hand out.
Evil can take on many forms.
Good people should never be shun whether they be Christian or not.
JMO.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 3:39 pm to Revelator
quote:
While I do agree, more time should be spent soul winning by every Christian, Jesus didn’t call everyone around him to simply quit their jobs and follow him
No, but Mark 16:15 is quite clear.
Working 40 hours a week to afford a modern day house, 2 cars, all sorts of electronics, lawn care equipment, etc. is in no way compatible with the Christian belief that more than half of the world is currently damned to hell for all eternity.
Your yard, your comfort of controlling your environment to be 70 degrees, have every member of your family have their own car, multiple TVs, vacations, none of that is more important than someone else's soul.
quote:
In fact, Jesus relied on the generosity of workers to facilitate his ministry.
He welcomed help sure, but he wasn't reliant on it.
Posted on 3/3/21 at 3:48 pm to Azkiger
quote:
Working 40 hours a week to afford a modern day house, 2 cars, all sorts of electronics, lawn care equipment, etc. is in no way compatible with the Christian belief that more than half of the world is currently damned to hell for all eternity.
Apparently you don’t believe that Jesus can provide you with a job that’s also a missionary field?
Bible verses about hard work
LINK
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 3:59 pm
Posted on 3/3/21 at 3:51 pm to FATBOY TIGER
quote:
And when/if they erase him, what then? You will still be able to worship but, will you worship openly and not defend yourself?
The Bible says when that time comes, the Holy Sprit will provide the words for us to use.
The disciples were beaten and told not to mention Jesus’ name again, but they went right back into the streets to preach as soon as they were released.
This post was edited on 3/3/21 at 3:53 pm
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