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Started By
Message
re: Charlie masterfully lays out proof that we were founded as a Christian nation
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:16 pm to bluestem75
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:16 pm to bluestem75
quote:
The Inquisition in Spain and the Reformation in Europe taught us that Christians will not hesitate to suspend those tenets to ensure that their brand of Christianity survives.
You mean Roman Catholics and Catholicism, right? The Vatican's Holy Roman Empire via execution, threats and intimidation ruled Europe with an iron fist for well over a thousand years.
Protestant Christians were persecuted by the millions throughout the Inquisition and pre/post Luther liberation from the Vatican's tyranny.
2
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:18 pm to EphesianArmor
Yeah it it's kind of a weak sauce argument when people want to argue against Christianity by using a bastardized example of a religious political use of the church not a sincere faith
In both Catholics and Orthodox in Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists and every form of Christianity has been guilty of it
That does not change the truth
In both Catholics and Orthodox in Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists and every form of Christianity has been guilty of it
That does not change the truth
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:21 pm to IvoryBillMatt
I'll take the founders own words on the matter over Charlie's, sorry.
Read article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli. Then go look at how many Senators voted against it (none).
Read article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli. Then go look at how many Senators voted against it (none).
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:21 pm to UtahCajun
quote:You are confused.
Nah dawg, you are just slinging shite at walls even when that shite has nothing to do with the event being discussed.
Charlie was right on most things.
However, if the Constitution is considered our founding document, Charlie is wrong here. Kirk would argue documents constructed by our founders prior to the US Constitution were our nation's founding documents. But they aren't.
The DOI eloquently separated us from Britain. The AOC served as a pragmatic interim premise. But the US Constitution is in fact our founding document. That fact overrides Kirk's state constitution assertions.
What about that do you not understand?
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:22 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
As with the 3/5th's compromise? Is slavery a Christian principle?
I'm not being coy here. I am simply pointing out that the beauty of the Constitution is that it guarantees freedom of faith. Insofar as the exhibition of faith, and the goodness of faith, sets a secular example, it can certainly influence law and society's expression of it. But it is foundational freedom, not foundational faith, setting that ability.
I am really enjoying this thread. Lots of well-informed and well-reasoned comments...such as yours.
Most of the Biblical pronouncements about slavery were limitations placed on an institution that already existed. The 3/5ths compromise was no more moral or religious than the debate about counting non-citizens for the census...and, therefore, for apportionment.
This might be overly simplistic, but I think it's like asking (through a time machine) the founding fathers, "Did y'all mean that everything y'all wrote should be read with the understanding that we are a Christian society?" The answer that most all of us heard growing up was NO, whereas if you look at the culture of the time, the answer is clearly YES.
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:23 pm to UtahCajun
quote:Sure. As were many many things.
It
Was
Background
Giving
Precedence
Of
Our
Founding
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:23 pm to IvoryBillMatt
quote:context
"Did y'all mean that everything y'all wrote should be read with the understanding that we are a Christian society?" The answer that most all of us heard growing up was NO, whereas if you look at the culture of the time, the answer is clearly YES.
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:29 pm to EphesianArmor
I am not responding to anyone in particular, but I have enjoyed the discussion. I propose that whether the USA was founded as a Christian nation is a question that leads to reductionist thinking. The entire West—even in this far more secular time—is shot through with Christianity and a way of looking at the world that comes from Christian thought even if not overtly Christian anymore (e.g., Enlightenment thinking’s primacy of the individual). So, of course, Christian thought was incredibly important to the founding of a nation in which the vast majority were Christian and virtually all of whom were steeped in the Christian traditions of the west. Some states had official religions, etc., and the importance of Christianity is the part that was underplayed in much of the education I received in the 70s and 80s. And yet, it is also true that religious freedom was more of an explicit founding value as seen in the 1st Amendment and the “no religious test” for office. Founders clearly differed in their precise views as evidenced by their own correspondence. It’s tempting to what the lines to be clearer, but I believe we may obfuscate more than illuminate in seeking a bright line answer.
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:29 pm to NC_Tigah
Care to give us a few examples other than documents and practices that the Founding Fathers were most familiar with as in the Bible and English law
You cannot separate tenants established in the Bible from English law which the Founding Fathers drew upon
And then the American documents a foundation which would include the Mayflower Compact, which was communism and in their experience, they thoroughly rejected it
You cannot separate tenants established in the Bible from English law which the Founding Fathers drew upon
And then the American documents a foundation which would include the Mayflower Compact, which was communism and in their experience, they thoroughly rejected it
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:34 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:
But there was a specific mention of Jesus Christ as the
quote:
Supreme Judge of The world
in the Declaration of Independence
Is the presumption of "Supreme Judge of The world" is the same as "Jesus Christ"?
quote:
We're not actually teaching people the truth when we're keeping historical facts from them
orwell and huxley warned us of this
Exactly.
quote:
these are the people that think the constitution is a living document
On one hand, yeah, there are those people.
On the other hand the "US Constitution" (and Bill of Rights) seem to be ignored, violated and selectively enforced since 9/12/2001.
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:34 pm to N.O. via West-Cal
I think it is very illustrative to compare the American Revolution to the French Revolution and yeah they kind of bankrupted himself and gave us the start
But the attempt of the French revolutionaries to separate everything from God and consider themselves enlightened men
and now you look at the result that we've had one form of government since then And I'm pretty sure that they are in double digits
But the attempt of the French revolutionaries to separate everything from God and consider themselves enlightened men
and now you look at the result that we've had one form of government since then And I'm pretty sure that they are in double digits
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:36 pm to IvoryBillMatt
quote:Yep.
"Did y'all mean that everything y'all wrote should be read with the understanding that we are a Christian society?" The answer that most all of us heard growing up was NO, whereas if you look at the culture of the time, the answer is clearly YES.
Southerners often considered slavery "Christian." It's how they justified it in church, and they were devout church goers.
Charleston, the crux of the old south, is referred to as "The Holy City" d/t the disproportionate number of spires visible to approaching ships. They had all sorts of Bible-based rationale supporting their actions, and establishing abolitionists as literally satanic.
But Charlie is presumably addressing Christianity in today's context.
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:38 pm to NC_Tigah
Understand throughout history people have abused and misused not only Christianity and the Bible, but all religions
That does not make the Bible wrong; that means people have misapplied it for their own selfish motives
Humans are flawed the word of God is not
That does not make the Bible wrong; that means people have misapplied it for their own selfish motives
Humans are flawed the word of God is not
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:44 pm to N.O. via West-Cal
quote:
Christian thought was incredibly important to the founding of a nation in which the vast majority were Christian and virtually all of whom were steeped in the Christian traditions of the west. Some states had official religions, etc., and the importance of Christianity is the part that was underplayed in much of the education I received in the 70s and 80s.
Two good points here.
Western Civ has been inexorably anchored to Biblical-Christian honor, ethics and morals. It an be argued for that reason, the West became a bastion of liberty and opportunity.
Right -- The 70s and 80s seemed to be the beginning of the take down of our traditional based Christian values. And here we are today -- now diluted to diminished influence to our collective societal detriment.
quote:
Founders clearly differed in their precise views as evidenced by their own correspondence.
They did. However to our eventual detriment; The top dominant Founders (Deists, Freemasons-Illuminati types) "won" the ideological battle for America's soul by purposely steering American away from institutional Biblical-Christian influence.
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:48 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:And yet we have the 1st A and the 3/5th's compromise.
You cannot separate tenants established in the Bible from English law which the Founding Fathers drew upon
The 1st A does anything but allow Christian-based governance in and of itself. The 1st A allows for equal influence of any religion including atheism (which itself is a faith).
The 3/5th's compromise arguably had long-held Jewish, Muslim, or Pagan bases. Only recently at the time, 150 yrs or so, had slavery been a Christian phenomenon.
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:49 pm to N.O. via West-Cal
quote:
It’s tempting to what the lines to be clearer, but I believe we may obfuscate more than illuminate in seeking a bright line answer.
Great point. I wish I had time to address everything said here. Lots to think about.
From a religious standpoint, I want to do my part to fulfill the Great Commission, so I want all the nations of the world to come to Christ. Of course, that can only be done through persuasion...and who knows how the Holy Spirit works.
Mostly I started the thread to show how gifted Charlie was. We're not going to resolve this issue.
Your mention of the Enlightenment made me think of this quote from Doug Wilson. In making the point that the Enlightenment erred in putting Man and "our" accomplishment at the center, Pastor Wilson said:
“If I were in a room with Hitler, Stalin, and Rousseau, and had a gun with just two bullets in it, I’d shoot Rousseau twice.”
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:49 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:No it doesn't.
That does not make the Bible wrong
However, it makes Charlie's assertions wrong.
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:53 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:The 1st A is a BEAUTIFUL INSTRUMENT, not because it empowers faith, but because it disempowers government's impact on faith.
But the attempt of the French revolutionaries to separate everything from God and consider themselves enlightened men
Posted on 9/29/25 at 4:58 pm to OWLFAN86
quote:BTW, which is why the founders were so wise to separate religion from governance.
Understand throughout history people have abused and misused not only Christianity and the Bible, but all religions
Posted on 9/29/25 at 5:16 pm to NC_Tigah
They separated government from religion not religion from government
There is a distinction they wanted men of faith to be involved They wanted that faith to guide their judgments that's clear in the founding documents
There is a distinction they wanted men of faith to be involved They wanted that faith to guide their judgments that's clear in the founding documents
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