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Started By
Message
re: CDC Quietly Changes It’s Official Definition of “Vaccine” and “Vaccination.”
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:11 pm to Korkstand
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:11 pm to Korkstand
quote:
The first dose of MMR is only 93% effective against measles, second dose gets to 97%. Two doses of polio vaccine is only 90% effective. These numbers are good enough because we vaccinate almost every single kid, so the ~10% of kids who aren't immune after two doses are very unlikely to ever be exposed to it.
Do you somehow think it makes sense to compare relative risk reductions across studies and diseases? Because it doesn’t.
1
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:13 pm to Korkstand
quote:
If efficacy is 90%, that means it has been determined that 9 out of 10 people will be immune to the disease for a period of time.
You keep using that word even though you are trying to say that’s not what vaccines do.
Covid vax does not provide immunity it provides protection. Immunity from a motorcycle wreck keeps you from crashing, protection in a motorcycle wreck is a helmet and leathers. Get it now?
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:15 pm to Toomer Deplorable
quote:
Speaking of “experts,” look what the cat dragged in…
The thread in question was claiming the virus was engineered from scratch in a lab. Genetic tracing renders that an impossibility, it did then and it still does now. Does that leave open the possibility that a natural virus was given novel traits through gain of function research and this virus got out? Yes. That being said, when you get past the coy claims which ultimately amount to entirely circumstantial evidence, it's actually still very difficult the explain how the virus would look as it did in its wild type form if it were the product of gain of function research. It lacks classic markers that are generally uniformly found i viruses that have undergone such research. Again, is it possible the lab was using novel approaches/mechanisms to do this? Yes, but even most within this field who have nothing to lose if this were true are having a tough time explaining it on the genetic level.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:16 pm to LSUfor8
quote:Then you do not understand vaccine effectiveness, probability, etc.
Dr. Jonas Salk says hello. According to the NIH, polio has been totally eradicated in the US. I’d call that vaccine 100% effective.
Neither Salk's nor any other polio vaccine was 100% effective, especially not after one or even two doses. We give kids 3 or 4 doses, and that is only good enough because pretty much every kid gets them.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:20 pm to Korkstand
quote:
If efficacy is 90%, that means it has been determined that 9 out of 10 people will be immune to the disease for a period of time.
Holy shite.
ETA: you’re not going to recover from this one.
This post was edited on 9/8/21 at 11:22 pm
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:22 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Then you do not understand vaccine effectiveness, probability, etc.
Saving for posterity.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:22 pm to Robin Masters
quote:Perhaps the layperson shouldn't read so much into the basic definition of a vaccine.
The most basic point which continues to miraculously elude you is that to the layperson the meaning of vaccine includes IMMUNITY. aka, “get out of death from hideous disease” pass.
quote:Immunity is a type of protection. Not all protection is immunity. Should this also be explained in the basic definition of a vaccine?
To 99% of people immunity does not mean, PROTECTION.
quote:I don't think there was a need. They changed it to try to appease the laypeople who think they are smart, but they underestimated the stupidity of the laypeople.
And again, your entire premise is bunk because otherwise there would be no need to change the definition.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:24 pm to Korkstand
quote:
This is exactly the reason they changed the phrasing.
I don't know what is so hard about this. If you get vaccinated, maybe you are immune, maybe you are not. If efficacy is 90%, that means it has been determined that 9 out of 10 people will be immune to the disease for a period of time. And the period of time is important, because immunity can fade. Also, even those who are immune may only be so under certain conditions. Maybe they are more susceptible due to another condition that arises. Maybe their body wouldn't be able to prevent an infection from an extreme exposure event. Maybe a hundred other things.
There are many caveats there are to "immune". Biology is messy. You guys are throwing a fit over a basic defintion that tries to condense all of that into a couple sentences.
Absolutely, and this thread is what happens when someone tries to synthesize and grasp the nuance of complex scientific concepts without the requisite academic background and real world experience necessary to do so.
Anyone can memorize what you treat an E. coli UTI with. What requires background education and experience is deciphering when its cystitis vs pyelonephritis, and when is simple or complicated, what you do if that E. coli produces this specific extended-spectrum beta lactamase enzyme vs another and what drugs you can use then, how those drugs interact with other meds the patient is on, etc. It's the same thing with relation to vaccines. What we have here are people trying to fit INCREDIBLY complex immunological concepts into boxes they can understand with the limited background they have on the topic. There's only so much nuance you can appreciate at that level.
This post was edited on 9/8/21 at 11:28 pm
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:26 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
What we have here are people trying to fit INCREDIBLY complex immunological concepts into boxes they can understand with the limited background they have on the topic. There's only so much nuance you can appreciate at that level.
That soliloquy would have been more impressive if you hadn’t just compared vaccine efficacy across studies and diseases.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:30 pm to Robin Masters
quote:Hm no you just seem to still not understand how it all works. It's just probability.
You keep using that word even though you are trying to say that’s not what vaccines do.
quote:No man, the wreck is equivalent to an exposure event. Vaccines don't prevent exposure like a helmet can't prevent a wreck. You can only minimize the effects of the exposure/wreck. For one person the immune response might kill the viral particles before an infection takes hold, for another they might get a mild cough before the infection is fought off, and for a third they might still get a full blown infection. Same goes for a helmet and leathers. Get it now?
Covid vax does not provide immunity it provides protection. Immunity from a motorcycle wreck keeps you from crashing, protection in a motorcycle wreck is a helmet and leathers. Get it now?
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:31 pm to the808bass
quote:
Do you somehow think it makes sense to compare relative risk reductions across studies and diseases? Because it doesn’t.
Do you somehow think blue can cross the sky to reach pudding in 6 ohms? Because tomato.
Since we've reached the part of the thread where we start posting nonsensical bullshite
This post was edited on 9/8/21 at 11:31 pm
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:33 pm to Roger Klarvin
You quoted a post that said “vaccine efficacy of 90% means 9 out of 10 people are immune.” Lol.
You don’t even understand what the error is in what you’re doing. Which makes it more comical.
You don’t even understand what the error is in what you’re doing. Which makes it more comical.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:34 pm to Robin Masters
quote:
You keep using that word even though you are trying to say that’s not what vaccines do.
Covid vax does not provide immunity it provides protection. Immunity from a motorcycle wreck keeps you from crashing, protection in a motorcycle wreck is a helmet and leathers. Get it now?
Like I said, you are attempting to fit concepts you don't understand into comparative boxes that allow you to think you understand them.
Immunity is a spectrum, and that spectrum is always relative to whatever disease is in question. You also have to specify whether you're discussing population level immunity vs individual immunity. And there is no such thing as a 100% efficacious vaccine, and even if there were it would not be 100% effective at prevent any disease at all in everyone.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:38 pm to the808bass
quote:
You quoted a post that said “vaccine efficacy of 90% means 9 out of 10 people are immune.”
Admittedly a bit of an oversimplification, but he's talking to someone who thinks we got rid of smallpox because the smallpox vaccine prevents everyone who has ever received it from ever getting smallpox at all 100% of the time. He's gonna have to oversimplify it or the kid's head will explode.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:39 pm to Roger Klarvin
Lol
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:43 pm to the808bass
quote:They don't?
They don’t work as well as the flu shots do
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:44 pm to the808bass
quote:
You don’t even understand what the error is in what you’re doing.
Let's do this then, since explaining things to you and answering your questions/claims has resulted in either you completely ignoring the refutations to your points or coy dismissal without further extrapolation: Why don't you tell me what you think the error in that claim is. Not how it's an oversimplification of a more complex concept, but how its literally false.
See either I'm too dumb to understand what you're getting at, or you're so off the reservation that I'd just be guessing as to what you incorrectly believe is wrong with it. Either way you playing passive aggressive 10th grade high school chick for the 17th time today isnt going to get us anywhere.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:44 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Hm no you just seem to still not understand how it all works. It's just probability.
So it’s just probability that no one gets measles, smallpox and polio anymore. And just dumb luck 75.% of people still get colds.
quote:
No man, the wreck is equivalent to an exposure event. Vaccines don't prevent exposure like a helmet can't prevent a wreck. You can only minimize the effects of the exposure/wreck. For one person the immune response might kill the viral particles before an infection takes hold, for another they might get a mild cough before the infection is fought off, and for a third they might still get a full blown infection. Same goes for a helmet and leathers. Get it now?
People who take measles, small pox and polio vaccines don’t get mild symptoms associated with these infections. Aka, immunity. End of story.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:47 pm to Robin Masters
quote:You're making Korkstand's point for him - due to general ignorance (inflamed and weaponized by politics) even more dumbing down is needed. But the MMR vaccine has the exact same "problems" as covid vaccines: it isn't 100% and it fades over time. The reason you THINK it provides bulletproof immunity is because virtually everyone gets it (and with copious boosters) and thus herd immunity is meaningfully achieved.
The most basic point which continues to miraculously elude you is that to the layperson the meaning of vaccine includes IMMUNITY. aka, “get out of death from hideous disease” pass.
To 99% of people immunity does not mean, PROTECTION.
Posted on 9/8/21 at 11:48 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Admittedly a bit of an oversimplification, but he's talking to someone who thinks we got rid of smallpox because the smallpox vaccine prevents everyone who has ever received it from ever getting smallpox at all 100% of the time. He's gonna have to oversimplify it or the kid's head will explode.
You’re a complete idiot if you think I’ve said or implied that.
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