re: Can anyone defend being a libertarian anymore?

My postliberalism is reactionary, a defense mechanism.

It's to guard America from itself, to protect my kids, to preserve traditional American way of life to the extent it's possible.

I'd prefer to live in a nation of mostly like-minded people where there may be swings in public opinion but they're within a certain range. Which of course is the state of being in most places where there are a handful of really strong ties that bind that predominate lesser disputes. I don't mind being on the losing end of certain things and deferring to a majority - But I don't want to live somewhere where there is a credible sense that your neighbors, the authorities and institutions are working not only to frustrate you, but to harm your way of life and perhaps exterminate it.

What's interesting is that what I think a lot of postlib guys are advocating for are pretty close to what a liberal society wrought in prior generations. This country had obscenity/sex/morality laws, it wasn't ever meaningfully libertarian. And we had very strong cultural norms for a lengthy period of our history that functioned with the practical force of law. While I believe individual liberty is the wrong penultimate ideal, I certainly don't think it's a bad foundational ideal.

In truth, I believe you've adopted "leave me alone" as an ethos, and I suspect most of us who believe like I do have no interest in disturbing your life in a meaningful fashion out in Alaska. In an ideal circumstance, we could, with the right population, restart with a liberal system and most of us would be quite happy with that, perhaps for a long time. But having now seen the inevitable result of liberalism - I think my question is whether to begin there again or attempt something more robust (especially to account for modernity).

Focusing on the micro (anecdotes) when discussing the macro isn’t really helpful.

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In truth, I believe you've adopted "leave me alone" as an ethos, and I suspect most of us who believe like I do have no interest in disturbing your life in a meaningful fashion out in Alaska. In an ideal circumstance, we could, with the right population, restart with a liberal system and most of us would be quite happy with that, perhaps for a long time. But having now seen the inevitable result of liberalism - I think my question is whether to begin there again or attempt something more robust (especially to account for modernity).

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Like all collective movements you are just going to sacrifice excellence for the welfare of the least common demominator.

I have no interest in dragging up those who have chosen not to participate. Zero. I am interested in "like minded individuals (race not important) who value community, which you will never find in the federal system.

the only effective govt is the smallest possible, not the largest. We're going backwards and badly. These Statists are trying to save 340 million people with one govt, and that is no longer even possible.

Very well said

The only thing I really am certain of anymore is that no human system is perfect and even the very best designed ones fail eventually. I just am honest enough to observe what’s happening around me and acknowledge this one is running out of time. And even if this current system can be patched up and worked with for a while it’s going to require people thinking about things very differently and learning to say no without hesitation.

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I disagree. They're only possible under a homogeneous society where the values are shared, not ethnicity. Granted you can get part of the way there with "ethno", but I don't share many values with some antifa idiot from Portland no matter how much our skin looks the same. I'd rather have the black or brown guy that was in my church on Sunday morning.

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I go back and forth on this. I've always found some truth in the idea that "white culture" isn't a thing. That's a very hot topic among my online follows these days, which range from passive evangelicals to borderline white nationalists.

And my position is typically yours. But, there is a lot of pushback on that from the fringe of the people I read, so I've been examining the assumptions some. I still think I'm mostly where you're at. But on some level I think the white nationalist types have a point - that there are probably some very core, basic ideas about safety, about work ethic, about education, etc. that we may share with the white progressive in CA more so than the agreeable black guy down the road. I haven't found that super compelling, I'm just putting it all out there for discussion.

The reality is probably that I believe in a Euro-American culture (let's just call it western) and that "white culture" could be an imperfect shortcut for that even though racial purity isn't any sort of goal of mine. But I don't have a problem acknowledging that black people in America probably have a more common shared experience/culture than white people do.

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Like all collective movements you are just going to sacrifice excellence for the welfare of the least common demominator.

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Ok, but I think the difference is that I want to lift up the downtrodden Christian who believes in the things I believe in. I can rally support to that. Our community can help that person.

It's a taller ask when the person needing welfare doesn't speak our language, doesn't value what we value, etc. - and obviously quite different if they actively hate what we value, think the sky is green and so forth.

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I have no interest in dragging up those who have chosen not to participate. Zero. I am interested in "like minded individuals (race not important) who value community, which you will never find in the federal system.

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I just don't think this stratification works in reality. You're not going to have community where the tie that binds is work ethic or merit or some other attribute. We're in this position precisely because of that. I operate in a social class of high achieving people who are mostly hard working and mostly smart and mostly monied. We just had a public debate over this concept and whether hard working Indians should get priority over (arguably, dubiously) less intelligent and less diligent Americans.

The people who opened the borders, promoted transgenderism, etc are in the class you're talking about.

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the only effective govt is the smallest possible, not the largest. We're going backwards and badly. These Statists are trying to save 340 million people with one govt, and that is no longer even possible.

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Well I'm not, I don't know that OB is either. The reality is that I'm just playing for sport at this point. I KNOW that your libertarian worldview is a complete disaster applied to 340 million people of whom half don't share much common ground with you. I know that my worldview will never be able to govern and control 340 million people in the long term. I'm arguing in favor of my worldview not because I want California under my thumb, but to be involved in the push toward a post liberal future in my town, my state, perhaps my region. I have no idea what will happen, but if there is some meaningful movement in my lifetime on this front I want people deciding their future to be considering other avenues beyond the liberalism that just led our long decline.

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But I don't have a problem acknowledging that black people in America probably have a more common shared experience/culture than white people do

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You can pretty much say that about every minority group, because they’ve had institutional backing to strengthen those cultures. The only group of people who are vilified for even discussing racial solidarity are white Europeans. Wonder why that is?

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Youre kinda backing my point that this cultural revolution should be community based and not nationwide.

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Isn't this the issue with libertarianism? You give us all individual liberty and then we split into groups to govern via repressive little fiefdoms by agreement?

The people warring against us - the people who liberals have been entirely unable to frustrate/slow - are doing it on a nationwide basis. Like I said, this is a largely defense play - I'm not looking to conquer the liberals or the progressives "for keeps." But if we take our stand in a handful of communities, we'll get wiped out. They'll consolidate everything else and then come for us, which on a cultural level is exactly what we've seen in recent decades.

Now, I do think there are a lot more people in this country who would be happier and more fulfilled living under "our" rules than "theirs" and to that end, I'd love to give them every opportunity to adopt what we believe and live in our communities under our rules. But I'm wary of that too - for the same reason I'm wary of Californians fleeing overregulation.

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Well I'm not, I don't know that OB is either.

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I’m grasping at straws seeking those who have the same observations I do and hoping some good ideas come out of it from someone smarter than myself.

At this point I see the writing on the wall and I can’t unsee it. Basically at this point I am just trying to observe everything from 30,000 ft view so I can make clear decisions if and when the time comes that the old systems don’t work anymore.

No one has the answer right now and there are just a bunch of people who see a turbulent future and are advocating for their preferred world view to come out of the other end. Curtis Yarvin probably has the absolute best analysis of the world as it is and how it actually functions, but his plan for what should come next is something I reject and don’t want as the new order.

These are very interesting times, and I don’t want to come across as hopeless and negative because it’s the opposite. I’m excited and hyper observant of everything around me, and since I’ve come to this post liberal mindset it actually makes the chaos of the current world make sense and there is peace in that. I just can’t get on board with the salvaging of things how they once were, because no one actually believes in it and those that think they do believe in a bastardized version of it.