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re: Can anyone defend being a libertarian anymore?
Posted on 2/13/25 at 12:58 pm to OBReb6
Posted on 2/13/25 at 12:58 pm to OBReb6
Libertarians are fools that don't live in the real world. Their ideas are great in a utopia where everyone is honest and plays by the same rules. Unfortunately, we live on Earth.
The anti-tariff idiots are a great example. They don't analyze data and make adjustments to policies based on the results. Even after Trump has proven that tariffs are a useful tool, they still refuse to accept reality.
Instead of changing strategies when the real world presents new challenges, they sit around and blame those who can see the failures in their idealistic policies. They think parroting a theory makes them smarter than the people looking at the actual outcome.
The anti-tariff idiots are a great example. They don't analyze data and make adjustments to policies based on the results. Even after Trump has proven that tariffs are a useful tool, they still refuse to accept reality.
Instead of changing strategies when the real world presents new challenges, they sit around and blame those who can see the failures in their idealistic policies. They think parroting a theory makes them smarter than the people looking at the actual outcome.
0
Posted on 2/13/25 at 12:59 pm to OBReb6
Your thread would be more productive if you changed "libertarian" to "small government conservative", and basically made the same arguments.
Just FYI.
Just FYI.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:17 pm to OBReb6
It's not that complicated. You can start with the golden rule.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:18 pm to The Scofflaw
How so?
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:21 pm to OBReb6
quote:
How can their positive influence be measured if there are no positive outcomes to show for it?
There is. Without libertarian Infuence you would be wearing a Che t-shirt.
Y'all are already claiming debt don't matter, we are the world's police...
Someone needs to be the grown up
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:27 pm to OBReb6
quote:Duh, no libertarian ever said it works unilaterally. Doesn't means it's meaningless or should not be advocated. That's one defense for being libertarian right there - advocating for better relations between people more in line with the NAP.
Non aggression principle is meaningless if you don’t have everyone you are in contact with agreeing with the same principle.
quote:And libertarians are saying that's a fricked up world and want to change it - AND they offer an alternative. That in itself sounds like another good justification for being libertarian - advocating solutions for a better tomorrow.
I’m saying that is the world you have to deal with.
quote:They are all pretty much the same when it comes to government overreach and violation of personal liberties. Any state that extracts property (i.e. taxes) from it's citizens is trampling on liberty and the non-aggression principle, they are only different in degree which doesn't mean much to a libertarian.
I specifically said more favorably than other world powers. Do you view China more favorably? What about Russia? The EU? What about Brazil or Saudi Arabia or India?
The US is better in one regard, we ostensibly have a written constitution that enumerates limited powers for the government. Under such an arrangement, which is supposed to adhere to the rule of law, one could justify some nominal taxes to pay for the administration of those functions.
Only the constitution is not adhered to so it's all illegitimate from a libertarian point of view.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:29 pm to OBReb6
Libertarians are having a massive victory lap so I have no idea what the OP is even trying to say.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:35 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Your thread would be more productive if you changed "libertarian" to "small government conservative", and basically made the same arguments.
Just FYI.
I don’t disagree with that at all
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:36 pm to OBReb6
quote:
I don’t disagree with that at all
There is no real difference in practical matters.
Regardless of what you think, a far right presence is necessary to keep the rest of yall from going off the rails.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:49 pm to LSUnKaty
quote:
Duh, no libertarian ever said it works unilaterally. Doesn't means it's meaningless or should not be advocated. That's one defense for being libertarian right there - advocating for better relations between people more in line with the NAP.
If you can’t enforce your beliefs on others until it becomes accepted then it’s worthless
Here’s something you need to understand, I don’t disagree with anything (well, outside of some things like open borders) that libertarians advocate. The entire issue I have is its hot air and shouldn’t be taken seriously because it cannot be achieved under its own framework.
quote:
And libertarians are saying that's a fricked up world and want to change it - AND they offer an alternative. That in itself sounds like another good justification for being libertarian - advocating solutions for a better tomorrow.
Oh man that’s gnarly! Want to change it how? What are you proposing?
quote:
They are all pretty much the same when it comes to government overreach and violation of personal liberties. Any state that extracts property (i.e. taxes) from its citizens is trampling on liberty and the non-aggression principle, they are only different in degree which doesn't mean much to a libertarian.
The US is better in one regard, we ostensibly have a written constitution that enumerates limited powers for the government. Under such an arrangement, which is supposed to adhere to the rule of law, one could justify some nominal taxes to pay for the administration of those functions.
Only the constitution is not adhered to so it's all illegitimate from a libertarian point of view.
I don’t want to be mean because it’s obvious you really believe these things for good reasons, but you need an intellectual intervention.
I’ll say this, the US when it was founded was about the closest thing to a libertarian ideal that ever existed. It worked well for a long time but it was crafted out of the circumstances of the time and has since deliberately changed itself to the point that the founding principles are no longer possible in the way it was designed. It became a monster and an abomination, and at least you admit the constitution is illegitimate and not followed anymore.
People can’t be left ungoverned as libertarian individualists at scale because they are not smart enough to make rational choices, or bad actors present them with false choices. The whole thing completely falls apart with out focused power propping up a system for it to thrive in, but libertarians deny power and are unwilling to yield it effectively.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:50 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Libertarians
quote:
far right presence
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:51 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Regardless of what you think, a far right presence is necessary to keep the rest of yall from going off the rails.
What the hell are are you saying? What exactly do you think that my ideology is?
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:52 pm to OBReb6
quote:
What the hell are are you saying? What exactly do you think that my ideology is?
Another run of the mill Statist.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:53 pm to OBReb6
You’re trying to reason with a midwit pathological liar
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:55 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Pretty sure he's more of a postlib guy who would love to be a classical liberal if it made any sense at all anymore.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:55 pm to Caplewood
I’m well aware and I do it out of sick amusement
Posted on 2/13/25 at 1:59 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Pretty sure he's more of a postlib guy who would love to be a classical liberal if it made any sense at all anymore.
From his posts, he sounds more like an ethnostatist who really loves protectionism.
Its the lack of control (freedom) these Statists fear.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 2:02 pm to The Scofflaw
quote:
Trump's current party is closer to the Libertarians than GOP of yesterday.
Which yesterday? How far back? It seems more closely related to pre-postwar domestic and foreign politics.
I think people are too willing to slap the "libertarian" sticker on traditional conservatism and localism.
Read up on the Spanish Libertarian Movement in the early 20th century. After anyone does it would be wise to run from the title "libertarian" and the traces of anarchism.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 2:07 pm to Who_Dat_Tiger
quote:
Ron Paul disassociated himself with the party then it went to hell
I dont know a single member of the Libertarian party.
Most Libertarians are classical economists with a darwinistic social view.
Whoever said trump is closer than the GOP ever was...
Trump isnt even a Capitalist, and has no clue wealth isnt static. Libertarians at least understand wealth is created.
Posted on 2/13/25 at 2:13 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
From his posts, he sounds more like an ethnostatist who really loves protectionism.
Its the lack of control (freedom) these Statists fear.
There’s nothing I fit into perfectly anymore. But if anything it’s hard right, which is why it was funny you brought up the right like it was something I’m afraid of.
I inject ethnonationalist points into a lot of conversations on here for a couple of reasons:
1. A lot of the “libertarian” and “conservative” positions people have are only possible under ethno homogeneous conditions, and I like to throw this fly into the ointment to force people to acknowledge it or explain a real way around it.
2. I think it’s strategically advantageous to openly use that rhetoric to make the people who have taken advantage of white passivity for decades to get uncomfortable and start second guessing how much they can push things.
I don’t actually believe in making an ethnostate because I cannot get behind what would be necessary to achieve that on a moral level. I do want the accelerated undermining of the people who built the country to stop though, and not waive the flag of surrender.
What I am is a realist, and I want to take advantage of the tools we have available at any given time to achieve a better world than what we have, and I don’t think that is possible anymore with our traditional assumptions about America of the past 100 years or so.
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