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Started By
Message
re: Bill Barr makes the Intellectual Case Against secularism
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:33 am to FooManChoo
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:33 am to FooManChoo
God’s character is defined through human intellect and is subject to the beliefs and whims of every individual intellect that defines it. If god is transcendent, then humans can only describe god at the limits of their mind and therefore, by definition, can never approach a true understanding of god’s nature. Such intellectual limits cannot develop an objective truth, and can only spout beliefs that are subjective and will never be universal.
2
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:34 am to Wednesday
quote:
I love him. Dude is smart AF.
I mean he was buddies with epstein, his dad made the guy,you got to love em
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:35 am to Wednesday
The fact that he is admitting this publicly, means he might actually, really be planning to arrest some people. He sees this shite storm of lies being spread across our country.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:35 am to Wednesday
quote:
What exactly do you propose to fill the spiritual gap when government isn’t there to tell us what to do?
I don't even know what that means.
quote:
Spirituality is what birthed altruism, not the other way around.
That's not true at all. Reciprocal altruism is what allowed us to exist long enough to create societies which eventually birthed religions.
quote:
We all have a different relationship with a higher power, whether you see yourself as a traditional believer or not. When I say spirituality, and when Barr says it, we both mean the bigger picture of a sense of right and wrong and honesty, that can’t be instilled by any force of government. It’s truly what is divine among us: and whether you’re Catholic, Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist or agnostic, it exists.
I like what you're saying but this entire argument (the argument of the thread) is being based on a strawman.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:40 am to MetArl15
quote:
God’s character is defined through human intellect and is subject to the beliefs and whims of every individual intellect that defines it.
This is not a provable objective (in the physical sense) fact. This is your personal subjective take.
quote:
If god is transcendent, then humans can only describe god at the limits of their mind and therefore, by definition, can never approach a true understanding of god’s nature. Such intellectual limits cannot develop an objective truth, and can only spout beliefs that are subjective and will never be universal.
"God doesnt fit my human thinking, therefore not real."
All you're doing is defining your own objective morality that has no basis in your own admitted accepted view of the world.
Theres no objective morality in secularism. Only physical laws nothing more.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:42 am to rbWarEagle
quote:It sure is fair because it's a good (and dramatic) example of how that line of reasoning can be applied to moral issues. What "works" for one individual may not "work" for another. What "works" for society as a whole may not "work" for the minority.
That's hardly a fair characterization of pragmatism, for one. We're talking about pragmatism on an evolutionary scale.
You also mentioned evolution. Evolutionary theory removes any and all obligation for anyone to be "moral". If evolutionary theory were true, all that would matter is survival for a species. There are many ways for societies to survive and even thrive while utilizing methodologies that most would deem "immoral". Forced servitude (slavery), murder of the weakest in society, theft and redistribution of resources, and legalized rape for reproduction could all be justified in a purely pragmatic society based on evolutionary principles.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:42 am to rbWarEagle
quote:
That's not true at all. Reciprocal altruism is what allowed us to exist long enough to create societies which eventually birthed religions.
What is the biological basis for altruism?
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:43 am to tiggerthetooth
I didn’t say god isn’t real. I said that he is only knowable through the prism and limits of the human mind, which is always vulnerable to natural human subjectivity. As such, no truth that purports to originate from god can ever be purely objective.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:43 am to rbWarEagle
Horse manure. They were built on survival of the best advantaged and the most powerful. Modern day MONEY & POWER. The only time there was significant reciprocal was when a group from a neighboring loose tribe tried to take their goods. And there were faiths and beliefs in the earliest of cultures. In fact it was key with most.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:46 am to MetArl15
quote:Not true. God's character is what it is and we know what it is through natural and special revelation (the Bible).
God’s character is defined through human intellect and is subject to the beliefs and whims of every individual intellect that defines it.
quote:We could know very little about God without God also being imminent, which He is. God has provided His revelation to humanity so that we can know about Him.
If god is transcendent, then humans can only describe god at the limits of their mind and therefore, by definition, can never approach a true understanding of god’s nature.
quote:You'd be right if our understanding of God was entirely derived by our own intellectual capabilities and investigative limitations. However we are able to understand objective truth because God has graciously condescended to humanity by revealing the truth to us in a way that we can understand.
Such intellectual limits cannot develop an objective truth, and can only spout beliefs that are subjective and will never be universal.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:48 am to FooManChoo
quote:
It sure is fair because it's a good (and dramatic) example of how that line of reasoning can be applied to moral issues. What "works" for one individual may not "work" for another. What "works" for society as a whole may not "work" for the minority.
No, it's a contrived example of pragmatism that doesn't scale beyond the context it occurred in at all.
quote:
You also mentioned evolution. Evolutionary theory removes any and all obligation for anyone to be "moral".
Not if "morality" is an extension of natural human behavior which has been shaped to be as moral as it needed to be to survive. Reciprocal altruism is a perfectly reasonable (and mathematically probable) explanation for how we got along so well without religion.
Also, I seem to recall a few examples from the bible about forced servitude and tacit endorsements for it...
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:48 am to MetArl15
quote:
I said that he is only knowable through the prism and limits of the human mind,
You can't prove this is true. You have no physical method of knowing this, and since only physical reality exist, and the physical reality for this doesnt exist, your statement is false or unproven at best.
quote:
which is always vulnerable to natural human subjectivity.
But isnt it possible that all versions point at one correct version?
There are lots of pitchers that throw with different forms at different speeds, but that doesnt mean they arent all trying to get a guy out to win the game. They look different and feel different but they're all trying to accomplish the same thing.
quote:
As such, no truth that purports to originate from god can ever be purely objective.
Define your version of objectivity. Only the physical exists, right?
As a materialist you simply cannot make an argument that isnt physically provable and call that "objective".
Even Carl Sagan knew the concept of God cannot be proven false.
If God is real, then isnt it conceivable he doesnt make his presence known to everyone? You keep shoving God into your subjective version of reality trying to stick him into your own creation to validate his existence/non-existence.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:49 am to FooManChoo
quote:
The eradication of the Jewish plague was a pragmatic response to the plight of the German people as communicated by Hitler and his regime, and the German people bought into it. That "worked" for that nation at that time but it was obviously objectively immoral.
That is a hell of a mischaracterization of philosophical Pragmatism (as in the movement, which is where my mind goes).
The great victories for American Pragmatism rest on developing new notions of language and how individuals conceive phenomena, and its effects on secularization are almost nonexistent. You might mean something else by it though, because I'm skeptical that your description is something James or Peirce would endorse as a view of how Pragmatism works.
Regardless, the real history of secularization has to be tied to the various schisms in the Church, as the various problems those schisms caused drove both governments to attempt to control violence caused by religious differences where they existed in one country, and individuals to figure out ways of dealing with people who were deemed other. Indeed, one of the first texts on toleration comes from Locke, hundreds of years before American Pragmatism.
I'm guessing you mean something entirely different from American Pragmatism though.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:51 am to tiggerthetooth
quote:
What is the biological basis for altruism?
Reciprocal altruism has been extensively studied, especially in the context of evolutionary biology.
Game theory has provided very clear mathematical examples of how altruism emerges. See iterated prisoner's dilemma.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:52 am to FooManChoo
quote:Written by men.
The bible
Also, you’re suggesting that because god revealed his truth to us, that truth itself transcends our limits. Otherwise, if “we can understand it”, our understanding is categorically subject to human limits, which includes insurmountable levels of subjectivity.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:53 am to rbWarEagle
Wednesday:
Rbwareagle:
You don’t know what that means?? Watch the video. Barr essentially says that in areas where government doesn’t make the rules (an area which is increasingly shrinking bc of a bunch of secularists pushing socialism everywhere), we can always fall back on our faith life, whatever that may be, to provide and sense of right and wrong, along with meaning in our lives.
His point is that - Marxists, and leftists taking over our culture thinks it’s best that the government run every aspect of our lives. So they’re trying to remove spirituality from it (in order to limit the competition). That’s why “secularism” in our culture is dangerous.
I one hundred percent agree with Barr (who I think is a Roman Catholic). Whatever religion he is, I don’t think he meant this as an endorsement of any one religion. He’s saying we don’t, as a society need the government running every aspect of our lives, when we have a strong spiritual life. Our faith or religion or spirituality provides the sense of right and wrong and community that allows us to function as a society.
And your statement that we had altruism before spirituality is just wrong. People have been worshipping gods since the invention of fire. As society evolved, so did our understanding of spirituality, but spirituality has always been there.
So again. Without spirituality- what governs our
Actions where no “law” exists?
quote:
What exactly do you propose to fill the spiritual gap when government isn’t there to tell us what to do?
Rbwareagle:
quote:
I don't even know what that means.
You don’t know what that means?? Watch the video. Barr essentially says that in areas where government doesn’t make the rules (an area which is increasingly shrinking bc of a bunch of secularists pushing socialism everywhere), we can always fall back on our faith life, whatever that may be, to provide and sense of right and wrong, along with meaning in our lives.
His point is that - Marxists, and leftists taking over our culture thinks it’s best that the government run every aspect of our lives. So they’re trying to remove spirituality from it (in order to limit the competition). That’s why “secularism” in our culture is dangerous.
I one hundred percent agree with Barr (who I think is a Roman Catholic). Whatever religion he is, I don’t think he meant this as an endorsement of any one religion. He’s saying we don’t, as a society need the government running every aspect of our lives, when we have a strong spiritual life. Our faith or religion or spirituality provides the sense of right and wrong and community that allows us to function as a society.
And your statement that we had altruism before spirituality is just wrong. People have been worshipping gods since the invention of fire. As society evolved, so did our understanding of spirituality, but spirituality has always been there.
So again. Without spirituality- what governs our
Actions where no “law” exists?
This post was edited on 10/12/19 at 11:55 am
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:53 am to jimdog
quote:
Horse manure. They were built on survival of the best advantaged and the most powerful. Modern day MONEY & POWER. The only time there was significant reciprocal was when a group from a neighboring loose tribe tried to take their goods. And there were faiths and beliefs in the earliest of cultures. In fact it was key with most.
I'll be happy to respond if you can explain what any of this means.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:55 am to tiggerthetooth
I agree you cannot prove god false, and I have no interest in that. He may exist or he may not, but no matter what, his existence can only be related to ourselves and others through a fallible human mind incapable of offering a universal, objective truth.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:56 am to Wednesday
quote:
Barr essentially says that in areas where government doesn’t make the rules (an area which is increasingly shrinking bc of a bunch of secularists pushing socialism everywhere), we can always fall back on our faith life, whatever that may be, to provide and sense of right and wrong, along with meaning in our lives.
His point is that - Marxists, and leftists taking over our culture thinks it’s best that the government run every aspect of our lives. So they’re trying to remove spirituality from it (in order to limit the competition). That’s why “secularism” in our culture is dangerous.
I think there's a lot of drivel and conflation in that. I'm glad I didn't watch the video.
quote:
And your statement that we had altruism before spirituality is just wrong. People have been worshipping gods since the invention of fire. As society evolved, so did our understanding of spirituality, but spirituality has always been there.
No, I'm afraid you're just incorrect. The type of behavior that I'm referring to occurs throughout the animal kingdom and requires zero spirituality or religion to exist.
Posted on 10/12/19 at 11:56 am to MetArl15
quote:
Written by men.
Inspired by the spirit of God. You have no physical proof God didnt inspire the writing of the bible.
quote:
Also, you’re suggesting that because god revealed his truth to us, that truth itself transcends our limits.
Transcends what's physically provable, yes.
quote:
Otherwise, if “we can understand it”, our understanding is categorically subject to human limits,
God,who created humans, and knows how they work, knew how his words would be accepted.
quote:
which includes insurmountable levels of subjectivity.
You assume God wouldnt know that which he himself created.
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