re: Arizona law change. Major ?.

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Sorry, finding an ancient law doesn't make it ok for you to be diddling kids.

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Tell that to the social conservatives who want to go back to "ancient law"

I'm one the ones telling you Groomers we don't need to go back to a time when 11 year olds could consent. That's on you people.

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Tell that to the social conservatives who want to go back to "ancient law"

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Social conservatives don't want the age of consent to be 11 years old.

Sick people do.

You've been on that side of the argument enough to make me ask questions.

That’s the kind of law you get with Republicans in control of the house and senate.

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but not the ones ok with it? y

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I imagine the ones who voted to make it legal were OK with it.

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you are sick

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I'm sick because I don't want to go back to social values of the past like 11 year old AOC laws?

Buddy, you are on the verge of pulling a tarzana

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Nobody thinks social conservatives want the age of consent to be 11

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OK Groomer

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Yet, you want to define it that way.

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They want to embrace the social values of the past, yes or no?

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This seems like the classic projection we see all of the time from the left.

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No it's just a great opportunity to show social conservatives a concrete example of what they profess to prefer, policy wise.

I have never supported an AOC of 11 years old, because I'm not a social conservative opining for old social standards. I always argue society progresses, which involves things like raising the AOC (as we see by the raise in age over time). Supporting an older AOC is the sign of supporting the values of a developed society, not one from the past.

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Right or wrong, smart or dumb, social conservatives are judging to save lives of the unborn children. AND, they detest the idea of the age of consent being 11.

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Then they're picking and choosing and have no real set ideology. They want to virtue signal in some ways and ignore the bad parts and pretend that doesn't apply.

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its ad hoc and can be whatever you want,

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Social values are flexible like that.

Moral values are much more rigid.

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I'm sick because I don't want to go back to social values of the past like 11 year old AOC laws?

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Why do you think social conservatives are OK with every single law that existed in every single state 100-200 years ago when we are talking about specific sexual issues that we are against today? How many social conservatives, when lamenting the hyper sexuality of this age, are specifically complaining about age of consent laws?

I think you are taking one issue that is not much discussed at all (except in the context of fornication and sexual abuse, in which the abuser is condemned by social conservatives) to attack social conservatives on a larger ideology of sexual conservatism, or biblical sexual morality.

AOC laws are intended to prevent the sexual abuse and exploitation of children and teens that are not intellectually, emotionally, or physically ready to engage in sexual relationships with more mature adults. The hyper sexualized culture we live in combined with the complete lack of necessity or urgency to marry young simply for procreative purposes means that moving to a younger AOC is likely only done to allow for perverts to take advantage of immature children and teens, which was not the intention of younger AOC laws in our history where marriage was expected and divorce not common.

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You realize life expectancy in the U.S. in in 1864 was 39. Essentially half of what it is today.

You basically had to start having kids in your mid teens in those days to have a realistic good chance of raising them to adulthood.

To act like that wasn’t a different time and place in 1864 is disingenuous

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I don't think you realize how much you agued my points for me.

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dalso nobody is saying it was “better” back then. Life in general in 1864 had a “plethora” of vicious factors that made life absolutely brutal compared to what we consider good quality of life today.

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Then what is the basis of social conservatism?

What society/values are we conserving, and why?

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It shows a philosophical conflict Like I said I'm using this is a concrete example for people who like to promote reviving our values and morals from the past. They only look back at it in hindsight and cherry pick the values and morals they can apply as hoc.

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Its not really a philosophical conflict, though. Those of us who “long for the sexual ethics of the past” are not making such statements with every possible sexual issue in mind but say such things broadly against the backdrop of the sexual liberalism of today. If you ask for specific responses to every specific issue, I’m sure a lowered AOC would not be included in that longing for the reasons I stated. It would actually be philosophically consistent to oppose a lowered AOC in our culture that is suffering from hyper sexuality and a lack of concern for the importance of monogamous and committed marriage.

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Then think about what this says about a society and its morality that believes in 11 year old is capable of avoiding these issues.

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Its near impossible for an 11 year old to avoid that in our sexually immoral culture. That wasn’t the case hundreds of years ago when children and teens were much more mature than they are now on average in regards to the realities of life, when marriage was expected and divorce was shunned (the opposite is true now) for the care and protection of the family unit, and the high mortality rate of child birth and infant mortality typically called for younger mothers and many pregnancy attempts. The entire culture—including public sexual morality, views of the importance of family and marriage, and procreation—is completely different today than in centuries past.