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re: Are you a nationalist?
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:05 am to jimmy the leg
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:05 am to jimmy the leg
quote:
For clarity...how do you see these as being distinct?
I'm not the OP, but I can answer this question.
As I've illustrated earlier, notions of nationalism after Westphalia were tied specifically to the notion that the polity should be based around a group of people who shared the same ethnicity, language, culture, and religion. This group should also have the ability to self-determine. Self-determination became the basis of what is called Westphalian sovereignty, which says that groups of people should decide for themselves how they should be governed. This is in stark contrast to the imperial system, which was centralized only to the bare minimum, which led to uneven growth and economic opportunities. This notion that developed after 1648 is ethnic nationalism, and it was the prime driver behind much of European politics, and eventually politics elsewhere.
The suggestion that nationalism is a synonym for pride in one's homeland is ahistorical, as one can have pride in one's homeland (the classic example of this is Horace's Ode, Dulce et decorum est, which exemplified, perhaps ironically, the belief that it was good to die for the fatherland) without wanting that homeland to be organized by the same religion, language, culture, or ethnicity, as European imperial polities, as with empires everywhere, were not organized along those lines. Thus we can delineate distinct origins for the terms. The key difference is that nationalism, in its historical usage, often referred to movements that wanted a nation but did not have one.
This is a key point to make, as the development of what is called civic nationalism, the belief in the institutions of a nation, was a post-national development, as in it developed after the nation was formed. Thus it isn't based on the characteristics of ethnic nationalism, but rather pride in institutions and documents rather than a single unified national identity, which the US never had. This is also called constitutional patriotism, with much written about it, with the US and Switzerland being two prime examples.
This post was edited on 2/26/20 at 11:06 am
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:08 am to cwill
quote:
You get an A+ for being one of the first, if not the first, to not start a thread wondering what the heck was wrong with the term "White Nationalist" when discussing nationalism.
You mean the first one to point out that nationalism and supremacy are entirely separate words and meanings?
Nice try, but you fail as usual. Something we have become accustomed to the past 15 years.
"White Nationalist" is nothing more than a nationalist who happens to be Caucasian.
Sorry that you are confusing it with White Supremacist. Once again you have swallowed the pablum fed to you by leftist leaders and their media propaganda machine.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:11 am to volod
quote:100% FALSE!
Usually when someone identifies as a nationalist, they aren't doing for a perceived love of their countrymen.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:12 am to SavageOrangeJug
quote:
Most people have no clue about the definition of 'nationalist'.
It's because the media has tried so hard to make it synonymous with "White Nationalist" which is something completely different.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:12 am to volod
quote:
Some American ones include racially motivated lynchings.
To be completely fair, this issue was co-opted (not without basis, for sure), to a degree, by the civil rights movement, probably out of proportion to historical reality. (And without a doubt, the mere threat of it was unconscionable terrorism directed against black folks.)
Extra-judicial lynching was just something Americans engaged in. Whether for perceived failures of the criminal justice system, for a particularly heinous crime, etc. The fact it was turned against blacks (and their white "collaborators") during the Jim Crow and Civil Rights era shouldn't blind us to the fact that white folks didn't invent something to use against helpless black folks. It was just another tool in the arsenal.
I'm a generally unapologetic American patriot, but "traditional" America (largely WASPs) used discrimination, redlining, "ghettoization", exclusion and even concentration against their fellow Americans of non-WASP persuasion almost since inception - blacks during slavery and after, American Indians, Catholics, Jews, Irish, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, what have you. This did extend to socially (if not legally) acceptable violence, at least for the time.
The balance of your post does contain a lot of very well crafted, thought-provoking questions.
This post was edited on 2/26/20 at 11:15 am
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:14 am to jimmy the leg
quote:Clearly, though there is obviously a gray area at the confluence ... as with any two related concepts when mapped/charted on a spectrum.quote:For clarity...how do you see these as being distinct?
cosmocracy - globalism - internationalism - patriotism - nationalism
Crazy4LSU has explained the similarities and distinctions in great detail. I could not improve on what he has written if I spent an hour drafting.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:14 am to volod
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:16 am to SavageOrangeJug
quote:
"White Nationalist" is nothing more than a nationalist who happens to be Caucasian.
It is not. Read my other posts. It is a term that came out of a variety of movements, used by those groups themselves who desired a white nation-state, like Harold Covington of Northwest Front, among many different groups. There are books in the 80s and 90s that discuss this that use the term itself that predate the popular conflation.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:16 am to SavageOrangeJug
quote:
"White Nationalist" is nothing more than a nationalist who happens to be Caucasian.
Nope. A simple web search proves you wrong. There are similarities between White Nationalists and White Supremacists, but they are not the same.
I do think that the media is constantly trying to blur the lines between your definition and what a White Nationalist actually is to scare people. The truth is that there is no big movement to make the U.S. or have a white national identity (or to maintain that). Sure, there may be a few clubs here and there, but they are no bigger than the KKK, which is an utterly irrelevant organization today.
This post was edited on 2/26/20 at 11:23 am
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:18 am to SUB
quote:Depends on which leftist you talk to.
There are similarities between White Nationalists and White Supremacists
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:19 am to SUB
quote:
I do think that the media is constantly trying to blur the lines between your definition and what a White Nationalist actually is to scare people.
This thread is the best evidence that people don't understand the history of the term "nationalism," nor do they understand the development of American civic nationalism, which is much closer to what people mean by patriotic than when they invoke the nationalist label, which again has historical associations with overt exclusionary movements, many of which were explicitly genocidal in character (German, Turkish, and Serbian nationalist movements are just some examples of ethnic national movements carrying out policies of ethnic cleansing).
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:21 am to crazy4lsu
quote:Ignorance can be forgiven and educated.
crazy4lsu
Willful ignorance cannot.
You have encountered the latter.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:22 am to SavageOrangeJug
quote:
nationalist
['naSH(?)n?l?st]
NOUN
a person who strongly identifies with their own nation and vigorously supports its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nation
Proud Nationalist.
Clueless pussies like Powerman, boosie, VOR, LiberalHank, etc. can worship globalist institutions like the United Nations, the EU, the CFR, the Vatican, etc. America and AMERICANS will always determine the destiny of the United States.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:23 am to AggieHank86
quote:At least you admit it.
Ignorance can be forgiven and educated.
Willful ignorance cannot.
You have encountered the latter.
Hard not to with the voluminous evidence you leave here on a daily basis.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:23 am to SUB
quote:I think most in the media are largely ignorant of the distinctions we are discussing, too lazy to attempt to educate themselves and too stupid to grasp the concepts even if they were to try..
I do think that the media is constantly trying to blur the lines between your definition and what a White Nationalist actually is to scare people.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:24 am to SavageOrangeJug
quote:
especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nation
This is BS leftist crap. America first does not mean america first ESPECIALLY when it is detrimental to others. This implies if a policy hurts another nation Nationalist really really like it over policies that don't. Lies.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:25 am to AggieHank86
quote:
You have encountered the latter.
I do think that the fact that people often reference American civic nationalism implicitly when they speak of nationalism generally is a good thing, but the ease with which the language can be co-opted into something resembling blood and soil ethnic nationalism is a legitimate cause for concern. I don't know how to fight it broadly other than to call it out when I see it and have time.
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:26 am to SavageOrangeJug
quote:
globalist
NOUN
a person who strongly identifies with other nations and vigorously supports its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of their own nation
The part after comma can be problematic
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:26 am to volod
quote:
If you really love your country, you could just be a Patriot. Being a nationalist indicates your may be willing to commit atrocities over a perceived sense of superiority.
frick off !
Posted on 2/26/20 at 11:26 am to Wtodd
quote:
Yes
and white
Are you a white nationalist, though?
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