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re: A tangent to the abortion discussion…
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:22 am to FooManChoo
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:22 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Its not about if it is doable. You could also think of drastic measures like taking away children and making them wards of the state if the parents go on welfare, or agreeing to have your whole family euthanized if you cannot get off welfare after a set time period.
My point is that you can produce welfare reform without such drastic measures. Sounds like the goal would be sterilization, not welfare reform, in this case.
I am not advocating the draconian measures that you mention, I am simply saying that offering welfare recipients the option of getting sterilzed for a moderate monetary reward should not be off the table.
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Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:24 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
Sterilization cannot be coercive (money) it just has to be flat out voluntary. Let a woman choose. Imagine the feeling of freedom if one knows they will never get accidentally pregnant. You go for it girl!
offering money is not coercive, they can still say NO!
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:27 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:It’s not a radical idea due to it being coerced or not. It’s radical because of the negative population growth that this would likely contribute to over time as well as the permanent “solution” to what should be a temporary problem.
Sterilization cannot be coercive (money) it just has to be flat out voluntary. Let a woman choose. Imagine the feeling of freedom if one knows they will never get accidentally pregnant. You go for it girl!
You can get people to freely do a lot of stupid things without coercion but that doesn’t mean a free choice is always a good choice.
A better solution to welfare reform would be training/education on fiscal responsibility, job placement help, workshops on how to create a resume and perform interviews, or just a career advisor. There are all sorts of practical helps to get people back to work to get them to learn the value of work and get off of the government dime without sterilizing your citizens.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:30 am to FooManChoo
quote:
A better solution to welfare reform would be training/education on fiscal responsibility, job placement help, workshops on how to create a resume and perform interviews, or just a career advisor. There are all sorts of practical helps to get people back to work to get them to learn the value of work and get off of the government dime without sterilizing your citizens.
I understand were you are coming from, but, Is everybody trainable?
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:31 am to oldhickory1812
quote:
offering money is not coercive, they can still say NO!
I don't care about offering money. But one could argue the offering of money was the overarching reason they chose to get sterilized and now they greatly regret it and they have chosen to be part of the class and gotten with the firm of Blada, Blada and Blada for damages and mental anguish for having been sterilized.
That's why I prefer a straight decision. I'm not looking at this as a welfare thing. I'm looking at it as a destruction of human life thing. I'll go back and read the original post for the welfare part.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:35 am to PurpleSingularity
quote:
Would you support a mandatory sterilization program if the individual has a child, and requests government assistance/ welfare?
as a last resort - but I would prefer we first deny long term welfare for any able bodied person.
IF you are able to support yourself, but refuse to do so, then you should rely on charity from your own friends and family - not the general taxpayer.
There should be 'emergency funding' to allow people to recover from emergency situations, disasters, or just plain bad luck - BUT that should NOT be something they can 'ride' on the backs of the taxpayers in the future.
I would also want a restriction on the type of 'support' people on welfare can receive - it should be limited to basic staples of food and housing, not expensive 'designer meals' and clothing, nor entertainment, nor vacation travel, etc. ALSO any criminal activity should ban them from any future welfare.
In other words they must be in real NEED, not some vacuous WANT. And they MUST be the type of citizen that can be productive in the future. If not, they at LEAST lose their right to VOTE.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:35 am to oldhickory1812
quote:Perhaps not, which is why you can look at the welfare program and see where you can deny or limit it or have such people get help in other ways.
I understand were you are coming from, but, Is everybody trainable?
Sterilization does nothing to help the welfare problem for people who go on it with children already, and it doesn’t speak to getting off of welfare if one needs to go on it in the first place. That’s why I don’t think this is an idea that was thought through. If welfare reform is the goal, this is a bad solution.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:36 am to FooManChoo
Yes, this is posed as a welfare thing. Why do every Tom, Dick and Harry women out there black, white, Asian and Hispanic jump all in for abortion if it is only about welfare. Abortion is a control mantra for women.
"I control my body and I will decide when and if or if ever I will take a mass of cells to term and deliver". And you people stay the F out of it. It is simply that and a wedge again in conventional and non conventional America.
"I control my body and I will decide when and if or if ever I will take a mass of cells to term and deliver". And you people stay the F out of it. It is simply that and a wedge again in conventional and non conventional America.
This post was edited on 11/1/24 at 7:37 am
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:37 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
That's why I prefer a straight decision. I'm not looking at this as a welfare thing. I'm looking at it as a destruction of human life thing. I'll go back and read the original post for the welfare part.
When you sterilize, you are not destroying life, because life is not there yet.
Plus, I am in favor of promoting natality in healthy families, we should create incentives for good families to reproduce more.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:37 am to oldhickory1812
quote:
I understand were you are coming from, but, Is everybody trainable?
Not everyone, but most.
BF Skinner trained a rat to salute the flag when it was raised on a flagpole. You can condition most people to do or accept anything.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:38 am to SquatchDawg
quote:
Anything involving sterilization sounds very Orwellian to me. Don’t like it.
What about the uterine scrape known as abortion? Out of sight, out of mind right?
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:45 am to oldhickory1812
quote:Offering more money to people who need it isn’t coercive? We maybe not in terms of holding a gun to their heads, but if someone is in dire straights financially, they may think that is their only option.
offering money is not coercive, they can still say NO!
You can encourage a bad decision by subsidizing it but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a bad decision just because it was made “freely”.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:46 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Not everyone, but most.
BF Skinner trained a rat to salute the flag when it was raised on a flagpole. You can condition most people to do or accept anything.
I am not sure that you understand my position, What I am saying is that only a portion of people can be trained to be a good productive members of a civilized and complex society. (the rat in that experiment did not understand the deeper meaning of its reflexive action).
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:49 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Offering more money to people who need it isn’t coercive? We maybe not in terms of holding a gun to their heads, but if someone is in dire straights financially, they may think that is their only option.
You can encourage a bad decision by subsidizing it but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a bad decision just because it was made “freely”.
They can still say NO!
Posted on 11/1/24 at 7:55 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
What about the uterine scrape known as abortion? Out of sight, out of mind right?
Uhh…I don’t like that either.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 8:00 am to PurpleSingularity
I would support a VOLUNTARY sterilization program that has a cash incentive attached. And of course starting next year I would support involuntary sterilization of all women ( only) in the Trump Reeducation Camps. These would be held prior to the dropping the gays off buildings and female baking cookie events. But then , I may be watching too much The View.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 8:03 am to PurpleSingularity
You're right, your discussion is not about (a tangent to) abortion, it is about sterilization and a means to keep children off welfare rolls.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 8:06 am to Lsupimp
quote:
I would support a VOLUNTARY sterilization program that has a cash incentive attached. And of course starting next year I would support involuntary sterilization of all women ( only) in the Trump Reeducation Camps. These would be held prior to the dropping the gays off buildings and female baking cookie events. But then , I may be watching too much The View.
What? are you trying to be funny?
I support the stuff you wrote with the 13 first words.
Posted on 11/1/24 at 8:10 am to Lsupimp
Pimp, the other side celebrates abortion in almost a religious sort of way. It's a finger in your eye sort of thing. There will never be sterilization as a means to birth control because though the other side doesn't want a child for political points, they just love to terminate the thing after the fact and not before it. Both means achieve the same end.
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