re: Updated: Full auto lower laws.. Answer from ATF on page 2

I hope you don't have any spare AR parts laying around. Like not even a detent or roll pin. Constructive possession. And you can't own any handguns that arent Form 1'd since they could be converted to an SBR by adding a stock.

You're over thinking it and misinterpreting the law that you quoted.

I think I understand what that law is supposed to be applied to. I was struggling why that law would even exist but I think I understand now that it would apply if you were buying a lower that is registered as an sbr. So because that is an nfa part you must have your tax stamp previously to acquiring that lower

So before I started this thread I emailed the ATF not thinking that they would actually email me back with an answer. Much less with an answer the next day. Here is the question and answer.
Questions:
Scenario 1:
Say I obtain a tax stamp for a machine gun in the form of an ar15 lower and when bought it comes with an upper that has a barrel less than 16 inches. Does the tax stamp for the machine gun lower cover the fact that this would also be considered an sbr due to the fact that it has a barrel less than 16 inches ? Also can I then take the machine gun lower and swap it around to a number of different uppers without any legality issues and if so is it ok that I would then have an upper laying in my safe that is not attached to any lower but it is still an upper with a barrel less than 16inches with no lower registered as an sbr lower to host it.

Scenario 2:
This scenario is fairly interconnected with the first but say I am in the process of waiting for my tax stamp to be approved for an sbr. Is it completely legal to have all components for the sbr including a barrel which is less than 16 inches and the lower that I plan to be serialized as the sbr lower as long as none of the pieces are assembled to become an unregistered sbr.

Answer from ATF:
Generally, a weapon registered as a machine gun would not need to be re-registered as a short barreled rifle if it had a barrel less than 16". If you change the barrel length, overall length or caliber of your registered machine gun, notify us in writing and we will update the registration database.

A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm.

So there yah go. Take that for it it is.

Did you read the reply from the ATF? It's not quite as cut and clear as they would have led to believe. If I have all of the pieces to build an sbr sitting in my safe to my understanding of what the ATF said no matter if they are actually pieced together they would consider it an nfa firearm. Which is not exactly what everyone was saying. It goes against what everyone was saying since it was the belief that nothing was a firearm until assembled to the lower

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A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm.

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part (a), Do you realize how ambiguous this is? A short barrel has 1 MILLION useful and legal purposes for owning other than making an SBR. Making this stick in court for simply owning a short barrel would require a lot of self incrimination.

part (b) until you install that short barrel or upper with a short barrel onto the lower you have not converted a firearm or created one. So this would also not apply to simply owning a short barrel or upper with short barrel.

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Generally, a weapon registered as a machine gun would not need to be re-registered as a short barreled rifle if it had a barrel less than 16". If you change the barrel length, overall length or caliber of your registered machine gun, notify us in writing and we will update the registration database.

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And this ATF examiner/responder loses all credibility with this very first statement. A machine gun could never be registered or re-registered as a short barreled rifle. A short barreled rifle is made from a rifle. By definition a rifle is a firearm designed to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

no because the reason you don't need a form 1 for your pistol AR is because it doesn't have a shoulder stock. Same reason why you don't need a form one for every glock pistol you own unless you were to go add a shoulder stock to it which would then make it an sbr requiring the form 1. So because you have the ability to use the 10.5 inch upper as a pistol you don't need the form 1.

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That's what I'm saying if I could come up with a reason for own a 10inch barrel other than making it into an sbr or a pistol it would all be in the clear but I can't?

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This is incorrect. Because we live in America the burden of proof is on the prosecution. The ATF would have to prove that you, without a doubt, solely owned that 10" barrel to illegally make a SBR. As stated earlier there are a million reason why someone would own a 10" barrel ranging from they are thinking about possibly building a pistol with it all the way to they enjoy plugging their arse with it. Unless the ATF has evidence where you voice intent to illegally build a SBR or have evidence of you illegally building an SBR there is no fricking way that charge would stick because you're not guilty of anything. Therefore they wouldn't waste time trying to prosecute you unless you were actually doing something illegal.

Reason for owning a 10" barrel: For all lawful purposes, your honor.

The fact that you are pressing this makes it sound like you are trying to do some sketchy shite.

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I'm just saying all of this sounds a hell of a lot like those "solvent cans" and obviously not to near the same degree but I'm asking questions on what the letter of the law says and every response has been ahh that would never happen or your worried too much about it. None of which answers the question whether or not your are breaking the law.

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Owning a solvent trap or Maglite is not illegal. DRILLING A frickING HOLE DOWN THE CENTER AND TURNING IT INTO A SILENCER IS ILLEGAL, without first getting a form 1 approved.

You quoted the law. I explained it. If there is a part you don't understand then ask a specific question about it. Or better yet get in touch with your attorney who specializes in gun law. They are the only ones, not the dipshit answering emails at the ATF, that can accurately tell you the law.

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Timmayy

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Seriously though, you are overthinking this more than anyone should. Also, stop writing to the ATF.

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Reason for owning a 10" barrel: For all lawful purposes, your honor.

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I think what he's going after here is that very narrow set of circumstances in various hypos that are sometimes presented (and, so we're completely clear, I defer to Prop ON VIRTUALLY ALL OF THIS because I'm an amateur and he's a professional - that's just the way it works):

If a guy has 4 completed lowers, no stamps, nothing hinky, just 4 completed lowers - all rifles/carbines. AND he has 4 completed uppers - all 10.5s with removable muzzle devices. He has no stamps, no "legal" uppers - literally no way for him to complete a weapon that does not run afoul of the ludicrous provisions of the NFA.

SO - they would attempt to make a case against him for constructive possession in that very narrow set of circumstances. "All lawful purposes" might win out, but they also might get someone to draw the inference.

Ditto for getting caught in a vehicle with a completed lower (no stamp) and a 10.5" - the whole point of the constructive possession is so that folks cannot get around the ludicrous law by merely disassembling the thing.

However, as Prop correctly suggests - the mere possession of a 10.5" cannot be sufficient to establish intent, as there are a shite ton of completely legal end uses for it. There would have to be "other" evidence of this intent to create an illegal SBR other than mere possession. Otherwise, the retailers, postal carriers, just everyone involved in a whole chain of events would be criminalized for literally doing nothing.