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Started By
Message
re: Someone Educate Me About Diversions
Posted on 2/25/14 at 10:04 am to ScottieP
Posted on 2/25/14 at 10:04 am to ScottieP
quote:
ScottieP
I never knew that bit about the roots growing deeper and stronger.
I think the diversion issue is a a good example of a problem that has many different causes as opposed to a single, fixable cause. As someone said earlier, if dams and reservoirs up north cause a substantial amount of sediment to remain up north, then we essentially have to make diversions just to cure that problem. But in reality that could be just one of many causes. I don't really mean anything by this except that it can be really overwhelming trying to figure out sustainable solutions to problems like this.
The levee system has done good, but preventing the river from flooding has negative effects as well (as someone also pointed out - sorry I'm on phone). Without the levees, I believe the marsh would be much, much healthier. But the problem there lies with the way of life inside the levees. Over the years, bayous have turned into roads and transportation has turned from boats to cars. We now have neighborhoods, businesses, schools, etc. all lying in areas that the river used to annually flood. The marsh is a victim to our progress. The solution is so overwhelming because what do we do? We can't just tell all those people to up and leave. We can't destroy the levee system because it protects us from flooding/storms. All the same, I'm really worried about how things are going to be 40 years from now.
FWIW I also would love to have seen Maurepas swamp back in the day. I would love to have seen my lease in Hopedale back in the day too. I bet the ducks swarmed.
Thinking shout the right solution to all this makes me feel like
. So many things to consider. 
1
Posted on 2/25/14 at 10:13 am to choupiquesushi
quote:
choupiquesushi
I'm interested in this. Do you mean from the creation of the MRGO itself? Or which time period are we talking about? I ask because I'm a pretty hardcore Lake P fisherman and so are my friends.
That argument makes a lot of sense just by looking at speckled trout. Pappy Kenny caught his mule 1999. I think it's still #2? Dudley caught another stud in the top 10 in 2002. Those three years were huge for trout fishing in the lake. When Dudley caught his big trout, At least 5 other guys I know personally caught huge trout that year, and two caught them the same week as Dudley did. As we know, trout move with salinity. When the spillway opened, we did terribly. On years when the lake is more salty, we obviously do much better. But if you look at that period in time between 95 and 05, more big trout came out of Lake P than ever. It was nothing to be flipping 7lb trout without a net trolling the trestles. My only explanation for that is that years of exponentially increasing salinity eventually brought in bigger and bigger trout.
Also just to note, I'm only 23. My knowledge of trout fishing in the mid 90s comes before my dad and I started fishing the lake together and comes strictly from stories told to me by guys with infinite knowledge of lake fishing like Pappy and Dudley.
This post was edited on 2/25/14 at 10:19 am
Posted on 2/25/14 at 10:21 am to bluemoons
quote:
I never knew that bit about the roots growing deeper and stronger.
This is Caernarvon's issue. People who say it has failed at building land are dead wrong. It built a lot of land pre Katrina. Problem is it was not deep rooted an strong. Katrina literally rolled up the marsh like a roll of carpet. Some say it is because of the nutirents in the sediment being at the surface so the roots do not need to go deep, others say because it is do to a lack of saltwater. Probably a combination of both.
In my opinion diversions like Caernarvon and Davis Pond can work, but not for building land. They need to be used to stop future land loss due to saltwater intrusion. Whats lost is lost. Short of making a diversion like Wax Lake ot blowing the levees your not getting it back. Use these diversions to stop future loss. Problem is people don't want to lose their fishing holes or move their oysters farther away from the dock.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 10:24 am to ScottieP
From my limited knowledge gained from talking with folks in the know such as yourself, I think I'm of the same opinion as you regarding the second half of your post. In a perfect world, we could blow the levees and nobody would lose anything. Sediment would deposit and the marsh would heal itself.
Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.
Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 1:37 pm to Nado Jenkins83
quote:
It would be epic to see the swamps before all the cypress trees were cut.
supposedly there is some virgin uncut cypress swamp in Joyce WMA. finding it is on my list of shite to do this summer.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 2:36 pm to bluemoons
quote:
m interested in this. Do you mean from the creation of the MRGO itself? Or which time period are we talking about? I ask because I'm a pretty hardcore Lake P fisherman and so are my friends.
That argument makes a lot of sense just by looking at speckled trout. Pappy Kenny caught his mule 1999. I think it's still #2? Dudley caught another stud in the top 10 in 2002. Those three years were huge for trout fishing in the lake. When Dudley caught his big trout, At least 5 other guys I know personally caught huge trout that year, and two caught them the same week as Dudley did. As we know, trout move with salinity. When the spillway opened, we did terribly. On years when the lake is more salty, we obviously do much better. But if you look at that period in time between 95 and 05, more big trout came out of Lake P than ever. It was nothing to be flipping 7lb trout without a net trolling the trestles. My only explanation for that is that years of exponentially increasing salinity eventually brought in bigger and bigger trout.
Also just to note, I'm only 23. My knowledge of trout fishing in the mid 90s comes before my dad and I started fishing the lake together and comes strictly from stories told to me by guys with infinite knowledge of lake fishing like Pappy and Dudley.
yes and the MRGO flow completely changed the salinity and the location of HIGH salinity water.....
Posted on 2/25/14 at 2:46 pm to gorillacoco
quote:
supposedly there is some virgin uncut cypress swamp in Joyce WMA. finding it is on my list of shite to do this summer.
this sounds like a great idea. I often find myself cruising down blind river trying to imagine what it used to look like. Only thing I ever see that somewhat puts it in perspective is the massive stumps just below the surface down the canals.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 3:53 pm to bluemoons
I'm going to play devils advocate and come off like an a-hole, but...
Why are any fisherman owed the right to harvest from a certain location ( in this case shell beach)? Nowhere in America is anyone owed the right to work where they want. If I want to keep my job, I have to geographically follow the work or lose my job. Why are fisherman different?
Diversions will no doubt rearrange where things are harvested, but why can't fisherman follow the harvest? Besides the last few generations, that's how Louisiana seafood has been harvested for hundreds if not thousands of years: as the river shifted the landscape, the people shifted as well.
Why are any fisherman owed the right to harvest from a certain location ( in this case shell beach)? Nowhere in America is anyone owed the right to work where they want. If I want to keep my job, I have to geographically follow the work or lose my job. Why are fisherman different?
Diversions will no doubt rearrange where things are harvested, but why can't fisherman follow the harvest? Besides the last few generations, that's how Louisiana seafood has been harvested for hundreds if not thousands of years: as the river shifted the landscape, the people shifted as well.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 4:10 pm to detective barnaby
Buying out some of the commercial fishermen most severely impacted could possibly be an option, but accurately valuing their businesses might be problematic. I'm not sure about now, but twenty-five years ago, Plaquemines Parish had one of the largest cash economies in the nation and St Bernard wasn't far behind. Greatly understating income to the IRS, if tax returns were filed at all, was SOP.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 4:16 pm to White Roach
Well, if they haven't paid their taxes like the rest of us, that sounds like less of an incentive to care/work to figure out what their business is worth for just compensation. In that case is say they've had their fun and if they can't show records of income that they think they deserve, tough shite. Same thing was happening during oil spill and many judges said no tax returns? No compensation.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 4:17 pm to detective barnaby
Sounds good to me
Posted on 2/25/14 at 4:51 pm to detective barnaby
I don't disagree with you, but it lessens the incentive to accept a buyout. It's their own doing, but it makes buying them out - and shutting them up - more difficult.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 5:09 pm to White Roach
There is no need for a buyout or any other form of monetary compensation.
See Avenal v. State of Louisiana
ETA: they (some oystermen) sued and lost
See Avenal v. State of Louisiana
ETA: they (some oystermen) sued and lost
This post was edited on 2/25/14 at 5:11 pm
Posted on 2/25/14 at 9:57 pm to jimbeam
quote:
For instance.
Salt water plants getting damaged by fresh water.
The most dominant plant you see in Louisiana's salt marshes is smooth cordgrass (Spartina alterniflora). This plant is so dominant in saline environments because it thrives where few others can. However, it is not the best competitor in fresh water environments, thus it's low abundance. Subsidence is a much bigger detriment in this case. Interior marsh cannot be flushed out with tides due to lower elevation. Those interior soils are not re-oxygenated and the marsh dies from the inside out.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 10:36 pm to detective barnaby
quote:
Why are any fisherman owed the right to harvest from a certain location
The average annual value of LA oysters from 2002-2012 was roughly $38 million/year. Louisiana's best year (2009) was worth nearly $51 million and accounted for over half of the total U.S. oyster value ($98 mil). NMFS, enter "oyster, eastern"
quote:
If I want to keep my job, I have to geographically follow the work or lose my job. Why are fisherman different?
No oysterman is going to get a call saying that he is being relocated x miles south in a few months. Instead, many beds would die quickly due to freshwater, and it'd be years before the new beds became established. Too much certain loss for decision makers to gamble on.
Posted on 2/25/14 at 11:05 pm to Tuco Pacifico
So 38 million in oysters outweighs the billions in increased flooding from wetland losses that will continue to occur if nothing is done...sounds like a bad trade off.
Also , Mother Nature will make the call to the oysterman in the next several decades when all the current marsh around their grounds is gone. Seems like a false assumption that their ground won't go the same route as the rest of the coast on the current trajectory.
Also , Mother Nature will make the call to the oysterman in the next several decades when all the current marsh around their grounds is gone. Seems like a false assumption that their ground won't go the same route as the rest of the coast on the current trajectory.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 1:29 am to detective barnaby
Once again, the oystermen may have a "right" to lease water bottoms and harvest there or the public grounds
But:
A quick brief on the Avenal v. State case, which went to the SSC.
The same will hold for sediment deposited on any oyster beds....
But:
A quick brief on the Avenal v. State case, which went to the SSC.
quote:
Avenal v. State
Citation: 34 ELR 20122
No. No. 03-C-3521, (La., 10/19/2004)
The Louisiana Supreme Court threw out a $1.3 billion takings judgment awarded to oyster fishermen holding oyster leases in the Breton Sound area who allegedly suffered a compensable taking under the Louisiana Constitution as a result of the state's operation of a coastal restoration project that altered salinity levels in the waters covering the fishermen's leases. The vast majority of the fishermen are not entitled to compensation because their leases contained hold harmless and indemnity clauses that released the state from liability as a result of the project. Nor are the fishermen whose leases do not contain hold harmless clauses entitled to compensation. The state owns the water bottoms as well as the oysters and cannot "take" its own property. Further, no other private party can use these bottoms to fish for oysters, and the oyster statute under which the leases were issued neither mentions nor suggests that lessees are entitled to profits. Thus, their claims are "damages" claims rather than "takings" claims and the prescription period set forth in the state's private property damage statute, La. Rev. Stat. Ann. §9:5624, applies. Under that statute, the fishermen would have had to file their claims in 1993--two years after the project began. Because they did not file suit until 1994, any claims they had for damages are prescribed.
The same will hold for sediment deposited on any oyster beds....
Posted on 2/26/14 at 10:03 am to detective barnaby
quote:
I'm going to play devils advocate and come off like an a-hole, but...
Why are any fisherman owed the right to harvest from a certain location ( in this case shell beach)? Nowhere in America is anyone owed the right to work where they want. If I want to keep my job, I have to geographically follow the work or lose my job. Why are fisherman different?
Diversions will no doubt rearrange where things are harvested, but why can't fisherman follow the harvest? Besides the last few generations, that's how Louisiana seafood has been harvested for hundreds if not thousands of years: as the river shifted the landscape, the people shifted as well.
I don't disagree with what you're saying. I just don't want them to leave or potentially go to other states. Shrimp bring $1.3billion annually into the state, and just imagine if we could get people to actually pay good price for good shrimp instead of buying shite from overseas. Crab fishing brings in $239 million. As you (very accurately) stated earlier, these numbers are only the numbers actually on the books. We're also the largest producer of shrimp and oysters in the United States, and Louisiana commercial fisherman are responsible for 25% of all seafood caught in the United States and the industry is responsible for almost 35,000 jobs.
(This stuff taken from laseafood.com and LINK just to make sure my numbers are right.)
So while I agree with what you're saying, I just worry about the negative economic impact of forcing fisherman into a corner.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 10:22 am to bluemoons
I'd like to know what LA sport fishermen (saltwater) spend on boats, trucks to tow them, electronics, gear, fuel, bait, launching, storage, maintenance, insurance, licenses and registration fees in a year. I doubt it's close to the commercial figures, but it can't be insubstantial.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 10:31 am to White Roach
quote:
White Roach
That's a good question too. I'm not sure what the numbers are this year, but I know from 2011 numbers that we have more duck hunters than any other state, and we harvest more ducks. This could've changed by now but I doubt it. The money spent on licenses, boats, etc. is huge there as well. I have no basis for saying this other than experience but I think it's pretty safe to say that there are many more folks are into fishing than duck hunting, but in a conversation like this I think it's important to consider all possible consequences in order to form the best solution possible.
That being said, like I said earlier, it overwhelms me to think about all of the things and people that diversions affect haha. So much so that I have no idea what the right answer is.
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