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re: Question for CCW members: Would you have engaged the Virginia killer today?
Posted on 8/27/15 at 8:38 am to weagle99
Posted on 8/27/15 at 8:38 am to weagle99
The gun would've made me hyper-aware at first, and I would've asked the people with me to leave (even if I thought it was part of the news show). As soon as the first shots were fired, I would've made sure my peeps were clear and engaged. It would've continued until one of us wasn't getting up.
The shooter wasn't paying attention to anything else, so I imagine it would be quick
The shooter wasn't paying attention to anything else, so I imagine it would be quick
This post was edited on 8/27/15 at 8:43 am
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Posted on 8/27/15 at 8:43 am to BiggerBear
quote:
But there still is a proof problem if Flanagan had been shot before he fired any shot. If he lived, he could say he never intended to shoot anyone, just to scare them, etc.
I think it would be reasonable to believe he was going to do it, especially if you could tell he was filming it.
I think in the least, you need to yell and warn the people that he had a gun. They would have at least had a chance to scatter.
Posted on 8/27/15 at 8:46 am to BiggerBear
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/16/16 at 9:33 pm
Posted on 8/27/15 at 8:54 am to weagle99
As long as it took him to start shooting, I think I could have slipped up behind him & cold cocked him 
Posted on 8/27/15 at 8:59 am to BAMAisDIESEL09
In Virginia, state law guarantees you the right to protect yourself and your family. State law does not grant you the same leeway to protect the public. Legal ramifications of pulling your weapon and shooting this guy are tremendous. It's a very sad indictment of our current laws, national and state, that we risk being sent to prison and/or being sued for everything we have and ever will have just because we prevented a murder of some innocent person.
Posted on 8/27/15 at 9:02 am to BFIV
So kill the guy and vanish?
Posted on 8/27/15 at 9:04 am to BiggerBear
quote:
f he lived, he could say he never intended to shoot anyone, just to scare them, etc.
Does that really matter? It's intent. (disclaimer: I do not know the law as I have not been to a CCW class)
Posted on 8/27/15 at 9:13 am to Hu_Flung_Pu
Without getting too deeply immersed in the law, if a CCW permit holder had pulled a weapon and fired it, the permit holder would be responsible for the consequences of each bullet fired. If he accidently hit another innocent person and still killed the perp, he would be held legally responsible for shooting the innocent. If he fired his weapon within a municipality that forbids the discharge of firearms, he would be held responsible for that. If he shot and wounded the perp and stopped the murder, he would be sued by the perp and his lawyers. If he shot and killed the perp, he would be sued by the perp's family. The CCW permit holder would face a mountain of legal costs. And Virginia is also an open carry state. With only a few restrictions, you can wear your handgun on your hip and walk down the street...as long as it isn't concealed.
Posted on 8/27/15 at 9:21 am to BFIV
Most of the following are educated guesses since I don't know Virginia state laws...
I would think almost anywhere, if a firearm comes out, you can assume death or serious injury. Time machines don't exist yet so we have no way of knowing intent. If you see a firearm, regardless of if it's just used for intimidation, the only think keeping you alive is the person's trigger finger. Intent matters a lot less when a lethal weapon is involved.
This is true everywhere. We don't have the same legal backing as law enforcement officers do. Any bad shot runs this risk.
Again, this is true everywhere, not just Virginia.
Depends on Virginia's state laws, but I would think if it's a deadly force encounter that the discharge would become null and void. Then again, I am not thoroughly educated on Virginia law so this is a guess.
While most likely the case, this isn't necessarily guaranteed, especially if the citizen acted within the confines of Virginia state law.
This I can agree with. That's why carrying a gun is such a huge responsibility.
quote:
intent
I would think almost anywhere, if a firearm comes out, you can assume death or serious injury. Time machines don't exist yet so we have no way of knowing intent. If you see a firearm, regardless of if it's just used for intimidation, the only think keeping you alive is the person's trigger finger. Intent matters a lot less when a lethal weapon is involved.
quote:
the permit holder would be responsible for the consequences of each bullet fired.
This is true everywhere. We don't have the same legal backing as law enforcement officers do. Any bad shot runs this risk.
quote:
If he accidently hit another innocent person and still killed the perp, he would be held legally responsible for shooting the innocent.
Again, this is true everywhere, not just Virginia.
quote:
If he fired his weapon within a municipality that forbids the discharge of firearms, he would be held responsible for that.
Depends on Virginia's state laws, but I would think if it's a deadly force encounter that the discharge would become null and void. Then again, I am not thoroughly educated on Virginia law so this is a guess.
quote:
If he shot and wounded the perp and stopped the murder, he would be sued by the perp and his lawyers. If he shot and killed the perp, he would be sued by the perp's family
While most likely the case, this isn't necessarily guaranteed, especially if the citizen acted within the confines of Virginia state law.
quote:
The CCW permit holder would face a mountain of legal costs.
This I can agree with. That's why carrying a gun is such a huge responsibility.
Posted on 8/27/15 at 9:38 am to bapple
We agree, Bapple. There is a huge difference between law enforcement officers' authority and a private citizen's authority. Even the cops have to issue a verbal warning, in most instances, before pulling the trigger. And a cop, at least, has the backing of the state in performing his official duties. A private citizen does not have that backing because he has no official duties. That is why I only have the right to protect myself and MY family, not you and YOUR family.
Posted on 8/27/15 at 9:55 am to BFIV
quote:
That is why I only have the right to protect myself and MY family, not you and YOUR family.
In Louisiana, it would depend on the application of this statute to the incident:
LRS 14:22
§22. Defense of others
It is justifiable to use force or violence or to kill in the defense of another person when it
is reasonably apparent that the person attacked could have justifiably used such means himself,
and when it is reasonably believed that such intervention is necessary to protect the other person.
EDIT: Again, I don't know if Virginia has a similar law.
This post was edited on 8/27/15 at 9:56 am
Posted on 8/27/15 at 10:10 am to bapple
The bottom line: Do we want to put ourselves in the position of having to navigate, at great expense and personal and family sacrifice, with the possibility of prison time, the legal system for doing the morally right thing by saving an innocent person's life? Our legal system definitely is flawed in this regard.
Posted on 8/27/15 at 10:15 am to BFIV
quote:
Our legal system definitely is flawed in this regard.
Agreed.
quote:
the legal system for doing the morally right thing by saving an innocent person's life?
That's the tricky part that can save a life or put your own life behind bars.
Posted on 8/27/15 at 10:31 am to bapple
quote:
the legal system for doing the morally right thing by saving an innocent person's life?
That's the tricky part that can save a life or put your own life behind bars.
Exactly. I've enclosed a link that explains, in layman's terms, the Virginia law on defense of others. It's not that long, and is easy reading for those interested. Nevertheless, back to the OP's original question, had a CCW permit holder drawn his weapon and killed the perp, he would be battling the full weight of the courts, and probably be bankrupt, even if acquited. Sad, very sad. LINK
Posted on 8/27/15 at 10:35 am to BFIV
quote:
BFIV
Good information.
Posted on 8/27/15 at 12:29 pm to BFIV
Good replies.
Posted on 8/27/15 at 12:30 pm to bapple
quote:
While most likely the case, this isn't necessarily guaranteed, especially if the citizen acted within the confines of Virginia state law.
99% chance the perps family would sue.
Posted on 8/27/15 at 1:15 pm to weagle99
quote:
99% chance the perps family would sue.
Yes, and the state (Commonwealth) will not help one red cent with the legal fees you will incur. As to the OP's question, there is a huge chasm between what is morally right and what is legal. I hope I NEVER have to make that choice with only a second to decide.
Edited to add: It is easy, now, to understand why so many people choose to not get involved.
This post was edited on 8/27/15 at 1:17 pm
Posted on 8/27/15 at 1:21 pm to BFIV
quote:
there is a huge chasm between what is morally right and what is legal.
I hate this too - with a burning passion...
Posted on 8/27/15 at 1:26 pm to Bulletproof Lover
quote:
If I saw someone pointing a gun at someone else. I would at the very least point my gun at them and give them verbal commands. If he turned to point it at me, I would fire first and only stop when he was no longer a threat.
Exactly what CCW classes should teach you not to do.
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