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re: Doe management opinions
Posted on 10/31/21 at 9:37 am to TKLSUMD
Posted on 10/31/21 at 9:37 am to TKLSUMD
quote:
I have too many does (5:1 ratio) and too many hunters that only shoot bucks. I’ve always heard the ratio needs to be 1:1 for the herd to do the best.
I like 1:1.5 (buck:doe) but that is just me. I think we are at 1:1.43 right now. It is all about mouthes. If you have a party and you only made enough gumbo for 20 people. Well next thing you know 30 people show up, and now people either don’t get to eat or their portions are small. You have to start kicking people out of the party. Typically they are does and culls.
5
Posted on 10/31/21 at 10:07 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
Dude you ain’t eating 10 deer a year.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 10:12 am to UnoMe
quote:
Dude you ain’t eating 10 deer a year.
It isn’t about meat. It is about heard Managment.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 10:52 am to Outdoorreb
quote:
I like 1:1.5 (buck:doe) but that is just me. I think we are at 1:1.43 right now.
Do your deer have ear tags to tell exactly which doe is which?
That’s a very specific number
Posted on 10/31/21 at 11:07 am to Ron Cheramie
Camera survey that biologists do. It isn’t 100% accurate but it is the best option we have on managing a wild deer heard. Camera survey information
Posted on 10/31/21 at 11:17 am to Outdoorreb
I was on a place that was awful close to a one to one ratio. The rut lasted about a week, with Christmas falling in the middle. It was always tough to come out of the woods for Christmas with bucks running wide open. Rut activity was intense, but the rest of the season was slow. Those does were tough to kill with the pressure we put on them.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 11:34 am to Outdoorreb
There is no way they are suggesting accuracy to a second decimal place, and I do that survey every year. Way too many variables, and the correction factor for estimating doe population based on individual bucks is a very loose estimate. You should be using it to track changes or extremes at best.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 11:35 am to UnoMe
I could, easily. A 100 pound doe doesn't yield much at all, maybe 60 pounds of meat. And I cook for many people pretty often.
And as others have said, not nearly enough does are killed at our place in a normal year. This year since the hurricane is an exception, I probably won't shoot one either since we high high mortality from major storms and floods. In general though, for shooting big bucks you need to shoot way more does than most places do.
And as others have said, not nearly enough does are killed at our place in a normal year. This year since the hurricane is an exception, I probably won't shoot one either since we high high mortality from major storms and floods. In general though, for shooting big bucks you need to shoot way more does than most places do.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 11:37 am to Ron Cheramie
quote:
Do your deer have ear tags to tell exactly which doe is which?
Nope. Just a guess as it seems like I see five does for every buck.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 11:49 am to bbvdd
quote:
Im sorry you don’t know deer management. In the rut bucks won’t eat the more time they spend chasing does the less time they eat, which leads to more energy burned and less weight. When they do eat, they will spend all that energy building up their weight instead of antlers.
You are conflating high overall density with ratio, and possibly two or three other things that have nothing to do with each other. A skewed ratio will cause bucks to chase less as they are easily able to locate a receptive doe. I have never heard any reputable biologist caution that too few does will run bucks down and impact antler quality. High overall density will limit food availability, but that has nothing to do with ratio.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 11:54 am to TKLSUMD
quote:
Nope. Just a guess as it seems like I see five does for every buck.
So you pretty much follow the scientific method
You’ll at least need to put cameras out to even make a way off guess. What you see from the stand is in no way indicative of your buck/doe ratio.
Personally, I don’t want to get too carried away with numbers, it’s just fun to sit in the stand and watch small racks walk and chase arse.
I remember a few years ago I was sitting in my stand, and a doe walked out about 50:yards, seemed to be on edge, so I pulled my gun up. She went into the woods, and a few seconds later a midsized 8 pointer walked out, followed her into the woods.
Roughly 3-5 minutes later that doe came running at my stand and looked like she just finished her shift at the local whore house…minute later the 8 came back across the road where he went in just a struttin.
Couldn’t help but to get a chuckle out of that.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 1:32 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
There is no way they are suggesting accuracy to a second decimal place, and I do that survey every year. Way too many variables, and the correction factor for estimating doe population based on individual bucks is a very loose estimate. You should be using it to track changes or extremes at best.
So the report you get from the biologist is a rounded number? The actual number I got in the report is 1:1.435928. I’m assuming they did the math and that was the actual number it provided, so they gave it.
Like I said, it isn’t 100%, but it is the best analysis we can do on the heard outside of a fence.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 2:15 pm to Outdoorreb
That’s gonna be a cell from a spreadsheet with the formulas plugged in. The interpretation of it should be a round number.
The report works by identifying individual bucks, counting how many pictures you get of those bucks, then comparing that to total doe pictures. Basically aight there’s 10 bucks, and 1000 pictures of bucks, so 100 pics apiece. There’s 2000 pics of does, so approximately 20 does. That has to be multiplied by a correction factor, which is based on the assumption does are more likely to visit a feeder. So you end up with a spreadsheet that says you have 27.8765268 does surveyed. That correction factor is a one-size-fits all guess, it could be skewed heavily by the weather, where the cams were placed, the age structure on the property, acorns falling, deer being deer, etc. Any biologist who runs a survey is gonna tell you there’s a large expected error with all that, and anything below 2:1 they’re gonna say is doing fine.
To really get useful info the survey needs to be done every year in the same places under as close to the same conditions as possible, and coupled with good harvest data from the property. The actual number should be taken with a grain of salt unless it’s extremely high or low, what you should be looking for is a trend to say if the population is growing or declining or if the ratio is changing. That will help you tailor harvest for the whole herd.
The report works by identifying individual bucks, counting how many pictures you get of those bucks, then comparing that to total doe pictures. Basically aight there’s 10 bucks, and 1000 pictures of bucks, so 100 pics apiece. There’s 2000 pics of does, so approximately 20 does. That has to be multiplied by a correction factor, which is based on the assumption does are more likely to visit a feeder. So you end up with a spreadsheet that says you have 27.8765268 does surveyed. That correction factor is a one-size-fits all guess, it could be skewed heavily by the weather, where the cams were placed, the age structure on the property, acorns falling, deer being deer, etc. Any biologist who runs a survey is gonna tell you there’s a large expected error with all that, and anything below 2:1 they’re gonna say is doing fine.
To really get useful info the survey needs to be done every year in the same places under as close to the same conditions as possible, and coupled with good harvest data from the property. The actual number should be taken with a grain of salt unless it’s extremely high or low, what you should be looking for is a trend to say if the population is growing or declining or if the ratio is changing. That will help you tailor harvest for the whole herd.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 3:05 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
You are conflating high overall density with ratio, and possibly two or three other things that have nothing to do with each other. A skewed ratio will cause bucks to chase less as they are easily able to locate a receptive doe. I have never heard any reputable biologist caution that too few does will run bucks down and impact antler quality. High overall density will limit food availability, but that has nothing to do with ratio.
Sporting classics daily
quote:
Buck-to-doe ratios can have an effect on antler development. The wider the buck to doe ratio, say 1 buck per 6 to 10 or more does, the longer the breeding season goes on. Does can come into estrus seven times. If a doe is not “settled” during her first estrus, she will come into heat again 28 days later. In wide buck-to-doe ratios it may take the bucks a longer time to breed all the does, thus bucks tend to get run down and stay that way for a longer period of time. Bucks in wide buck-to-doe ratios compared to narrower ratios tend to lose more weight and body condition during the rut. Where the breeding goes on for a longer period of time, bucks cannot “repair” as quickly as where buck-to-doe ratios are narrower. Since body takes precedence over antlers, the following year’s antlers are not necessarily going to improve or get that much bigger, even though the buck is a year older
Posted on 10/31/21 at 3:55 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
You don’t think I know how a camera survey is conducted?
Did you not see where I said it was not 100% but it is the best way we know of right now? If you know a different way please do let us know.
Camera surveys counted by biologists, harvest data from DMAP, hunting observation data from October-January, and seasonal visits from biologist sounds like the best way to manage heard numbers and ratios you can possibly do on a wild deer heard to me.
Did you not see where I said it was not 100% but it is the best way we know of right now? If you know a different way please do let us know.
Camera surveys counted by biologists, harvest data from DMAP, hunting observation data from October-January, and seasonal visits from biologist sounds like the best way to manage heard numbers and ratios you can possibly do on a wild deer heard to me.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 4:03 pm to bbvdd
He is drawing out hypotheticals to the point of hyperbole to illustrate them, and careful to note there are a lot of factors at play. Ratios that extreme and winters that cold just don’t occur in the south. You’re talking about 10:1 ratios before every doe isn’t bred in two cycles, and by the third spring green up has happened. Food and birthdays are what grow bucks.
quote:
However, I think the results you are seeing and describe are due to several factors; change in buck-to-doe ratio, reduction in overall deer populations resulting in more quality “feed” on a daily basis and bucks getting older.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 4:08 pm to Outdoorreb
quote:
Did you not see where I said it was not 100% but it is the best way we know of right now? If you know a different way please do let us know.
It is the best way to manage a deer herd, but seeing a difference between 1:1.43 vs 1:1.5 is completely misunderstanding what it’s telling you. Those numbers are statistically equivalent. Run it again in a month and you’ll get 1:1.76556262. If you do magically get 1:1.5000 one day, you won’t see any difference on the ground.
Read the trend year over year, and use that to increase or decrease harvest over baseline.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 7:19 pm to TheDrunkenTigah
quote:
deer herd
Sorry about that.
I agree you can’t see a difference between 1.43 and 1.5 but the 1.43 is the number the data gives you.
If I see my number jump to 1:2.5 next year you can bet I’m going to up my doe harvest. Especially if my hunting observation data correlates the same.
Posted on 10/31/21 at 10:04 pm to Outdoorreb
So it is claimed that the bucks are healthier and grow better racks if they only get to breed a doe one or two times a year?
If that is the way you feel it should be, then I suppose that most of you guys would be happy if you were horney as hell but never got any action. (Self gratification excluded.)
If that is the way you feel it should be, then I suppose that most of you guys would be happy if you were horney as hell but never got any action. (Self gratification excluded.)
Posted on 10/31/21 at 11:00 pm to LSUTigahss
Put the meat in the freezer early season...wait for bullwinkle..
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