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Message
re: "9mm vs 40 sw" The great handgun debate
Posted on 3/19/16 at 6:45 pm to prplhze2000
Posted on 3/19/16 at 6:45 pm to prplhze2000
quote:
You're leaving out that the killers in Miami were hit and didn't go down right away. They were also combat vets. Didn't freak when they were hit. In some ways, they were better trained than the agents.
Agents also got nailed trying to reload revolvers.
All that's true. Another problem was that the FBI team had long guns available, but only 2 shotguns among the vehicles who actually stopped Platt and Matix. If there had been 2 or 3 rifles available to the stopping agents, all the FBI guys would have made it home alive, IMHO.
If .38 Spl and 9mm are your "problems" - 10mm, .40 S&W or even .45 ACP aren't your solutions. 12 gauge, 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO are your solutions - as always, just IMHO.
Posted on 3/19/16 at 8:02 pm to public_enemy
I'd buy a 9mm first if I didn't own a service caliber pistol. I have 9, 40, and 357 auto, the 9 sees more use but if I had to choose one to defend myself I'd shoot my 357 sig with Ranger Ts.
Posted on 3/19/16 at 9:33 pm to Bruneaux
quote:
I just came into this thread just to downvote all the .40 trash...
40 s&w Remington Golden Saber 165 grain
Real world data with this round:
146 shootings, 137 one shot stops
94% one shot stopping power percentage.
Better stopping % than any 9mm or 9mm + p round.
Underwood ammo 40 s&w, 135 grains, 623 ft.lbs.
More power than any 9mm +p or +p+ round.
Yeah, 40 sucks.
This post was edited on 3/19/16 at 9:34 pm
Posted on 3/20/16 at 7:46 am to prplhze2000
the Miami thugs were firing mini 14's at agents carrying service revolvers
Posted on 3/20/16 at 7:48 am to cgrand
Weren't they mostly .38's?
I can't believe that even back then they didn't carry a rifle in the car. One officer with any scoped rifle could have ended that shite.
I can't believe that even back then they didn't carry a rifle in the car. One officer with any scoped rifle could have ended that shite.
Posted on 3/20/16 at 8:23 am to ctiger69
quote:
Underwood ammo 40 s&w, 135 grains, 623 ft.lbs.
More power than any 9mm +p or +p+ round.
115 grain 9mm powrball probably gets close.
Posted on 3/20/16 at 10:00 am to public_enemy
Go with what you want. Personally, I shoot all three calibers equally bad (9mm, .40, and .45)....and any one of the three of 'em will kill you just as dead as the other.
Posted on 3/20/16 at 11:04 am to goldshellback
I laugh now because I have no idea if I'll end up just like you. Im going with the 40. The reason is that the 9 just doesn't feel right in my hand. No balistic or magazine talk, the 40 just feels right
Posted on 3/20/16 at 12:55 pm to public_enemy
quote:
laugh now because I have no idea if I'll end up just like you. Im going with the 40. The reason is that the 9 just doesn't feel right in my hand. No balistic or magazine talk, the 40 just feels right
I call bs. It's in your head. I've held both in varying sizes (full, compact, carry) and no way you can tell the difference.
Posted on 3/20/16 at 3:03 pm to northern
I will throw in a few responses to support the 40.
It is hard to find a bad round for the 40 for self defense.
It is not hard to find a bad round for 9 mm for self defense round. For this reason the 40 has better ammo selection for self defense than the 9mm.
The 9 mm is constantly trying to play catchup to the 40 in energy. 40 s&w vs a 9 mm is no comparison. 40 wins. Once a 9 mm comes close to the power of a 40 you are shooting a 9 +p or +p+ round. These 9 mm rounds are more expensive, snappy, and wears the 9 mm barrel out quicker. 9 mm +p with 400 lbs/energy will match all of the negative comments about a 40 s&w round that has 418 lbs/energy. Only a 9 mm fan will say 400 >> 418 and ignore the fact that you just made your 9 mm snappy. You are basically shooting a weak 40 now. If you want to shoot these hot 9 mm rounds you need to just save your time and go buy a 40. But still the hot 40 rounds are more powerful than the hot 9 mm rounds.
Basically, there is nothing a 9 mm can do that a 40 can't do except for slightly larger ammo capacity. They have recoil reducing 40 loads to eliminate the recoil in small frame 40 s&w guns. Or you can shoot a HK USP which is not built on the wimpy 9 mm frame. It is built on a beefer frame meant for a 40. This HK gun has less recoil. In fact my friend through he was shooting a 9 mm the entire time at the shooting range. I had to show him a bullet to convince him it was a 40. I asked him how the recoil felt. He said it has zero recoil and it felt exactly the same as his 9 mm gun we were shooting earlier. His 1911 45 kicked much harder that day compared to the soft shooting 40.
It is hard to find a bad round for the 40 for self defense.
It is not hard to find a bad round for 9 mm for self defense round. For this reason the 40 has better ammo selection for self defense than the 9mm.
The 9 mm is constantly trying to play catchup to the 40 in energy. 40 s&w vs a 9 mm is no comparison. 40 wins. Once a 9 mm comes close to the power of a 40 you are shooting a 9 +p or +p+ round. These 9 mm rounds are more expensive, snappy, and wears the 9 mm barrel out quicker. 9 mm +p with 400 lbs/energy will match all of the negative comments about a 40 s&w round that has 418 lbs/energy. Only a 9 mm fan will say 400 >> 418 and ignore the fact that you just made your 9 mm snappy. You are basically shooting a weak 40 now. If you want to shoot these hot 9 mm rounds you need to just save your time and go buy a 40. But still the hot 40 rounds are more powerful than the hot 9 mm rounds.
Basically, there is nothing a 9 mm can do that a 40 can't do except for slightly larger ammo capacity. They have recoil reducing 40 loads to eliminate the recoil in small frame 40 s&w guns. Or you can shoot a HK USP which is not built on the wimpy 9 mm frame. It is built on a beefer frame meant for a 40. This HK gun has less recoil. In fact my friend through he was shooting a 9 mm the entire time at the shooting range. I had to show him a bullet to convince him it was a 40. I asked him how the recoil felt. He said it has zero recoil and it felt exactly the same as his 9 mm gun we were shooting earlier. His 1911 45 kicked much harder that day compared to the soft shooting 40.
This post was edited on 3/20/16 at 3:07 pm
Posted on 3/20/16 at 3:34 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
I can't believe that even back then they didn't carry a rifle in the car.
To show just how much things have changed - these FBI guys were actively looking for the armed robbers - they had a hunch (based on the pattern) that Platt and Matix would be pulling a job that day. The larger team did have some long guns, and the vehicles that executed the stop had 2 shotguns. I think 1 was unavailable because of the crash (all the FBI vehicles crashed into the suspect vehicle to stop it) - and one of the agents lost his handgun in the crash, too.
So, only 1 shotgun was brought to bear - if just the second shotgun had been available or at least 1 MP5 and 1 M16 in the other part of the team had been available - things would have turned out differently.
Posted on 3/20/16 at 4:00 pm to northern
I mean if you'd like to meet me at cabelas I'll gladly show you. Just let me know when
Posted on 3/20/16 at 8:50 pm to ctiger69
Thanks. I actually enjoy shooting my Glock 27.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 9:39 am to public_enemy
quote:
I mean if you'd like to meet me at cabelas I'll gladly show you. Just let me know when
Went to Cabela's yesterday, guess I missed ya. You must have been putting in overtime for your carnival job at the "guess my weight booth."
All things being equal (full size/carry/compact) there is zero discernible weight difference between the same models in different calibers.
You sir are full of shite.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 9:48 am to public_enemy
quote:
The reason is that the 9 just doesn't feel right in my hand. No balistic or magazine talk, the 40 just feels right
considering that almost all 9s/40s are built on the same frames and slides, that's pretty impressive that you can feel a difference. I just weighed several models of 9/40 that we have in the case (Glocks 17/22, Glocks 19/23, M&P9/M&P40, M&P9c/M&P40c, and Sig P320 in 9/40). They all weighed the exact same, save for the P320, and the difference in the two was a fraction of an ounce.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 11:02 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
I'm not a metallurgist, bullet engineer or physicist. At a certain point, we were already comparing apples to apples, anyway. Recall that hollowpoint ammunition was pretty much just that for decades - a partially jacketed or unjacketed round with a - at times - crude hollowed out shape. Much of such ammunition came out of handloading, and the cartridges themselves were demonized in some state and local laws as "dum dums" and so forth.
So, when the capacity came to make really high quality HP and JHP ammunition, the first one to really grab attention was the Federal 357B - it remains an extremely effective (although obsolete) round with a 95% "one shot stop" record in real world shootings. Now - keep in mind, this is skewed as much of the real world shooting data was police involved shootings from the 1950s through 1980s and a lot of those cops were carrying 4-inch Colt and Smith .357 revolvers with 6 in the cylinder. If you think about it - it makes sense those guys took their time and tried to make every shot count.
Flash forward to the 1980s - 9mm pistols had NEVER been popular in the U.S. Revolvers were still king as late as the late 70s/early 80s. .38 and .357 were huge sellers for law enforcement and self defense options. Larger .357 revolvers were popular for hunting. So, what bullet development existed was for those platforms (first) - now 38 special and .357 are approximately the same diameter as 9mm and share many of the bullet weights, so some of that was transferable. There was also a .45 ACP market, sustained heavily by veterans who had experience with the M1911 from their years in the service.
THEN, several things happened in short order - the U.S. military changed their sidearm from the M1911 and wanted to use the 9mm NATO (Luger/Parabellum - all the same thing) cartridge for standardization with our allies, as we were still in the Cold War.
This started in 1979. The Beretta 92 (M9, ultimately selected) was developed. Sig adapted their P220 to conform with the specs, which yielded the P226 (who ultimately ditched their M9s for this, far superior, albeit pricey, platform) - and by the mid/end of the 1980s, EVERYBODY had a full-sized and compact "Wonder 9" for sale at gun stores all over this great country.
Everyone knew that 9mm was inferior to .45, as it was those little tiny bullets, compared to the "short and fat" .45 ACP. But, these were new, fancy, double action and held a shite ton of bullets. The military bought them and every police force from Maine to Mauna Loa bought them.
Just as the market was, more or less, saturated, the results of the aftermath of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout became available.
If you don't believe in government insanity, you should study that issue. They were SHOCKED that their pistol/revolver armed agents lost a gunfight with perps armed with long guns - and their response (What would you do? Arm your agents with long guns, right?) - was to try to get a more effective pistol round.
Jeff Cooper had one - the 10mm Auto. And it was a high velocity, hard hitting round - but it was made for M1911 platforms and was really hard on smaller guns and agents. So, they ultimately cut it down and created a cartridge that was smaller and faster than .45ACP and bigger and slower than 9mm. America loves choices, so now you had small, medium, and big (still pistol rounds, mind you - still huge compromises, but choices, right?).
So, when the ugly gun/magazine ban went into effect in 1994, the 9 lost it's huge advantage. People picked .40 and .45 more often, because if you were limited to 10 rounds, then the bias was for the larger caliber. No replacement for bullet weight, particularly with 20th century bullet designs.
Well, in 2004, the ugly gun ban expired and there was renewed interest in 9mm, as they have, as pointed out in the thread by the 9mm disciples, typically 2 or more rounds advantage over .40 in the same platform. Plus, the ammo was historically cheaper and easier to obtain, before the late unpleasantness.
9s became hugely popular again. Bullet makers started focusing on what could be fixed - the 9mm terminal performance, penetration, expansion, etc. The reason they're "even" now is that 9mm had more room to grow. The same technology was applied to .40 and .45 ACP, and they're improved as well, but we're at the point of diminishing returns and they've all settled onto about even performance.
So, until a breakthrough occurs that takes advantage of the larger caliber's bullet mass or diameter, the easier to shoot/can carry more rounds cartridge wins current evaluations by default.
Thanks for the thoughtful response... very educational.
Looks like I asked the right guy.
Posted on 3/21/16 at 11:10 am to northern
I was there saturday. I didn't say anything about weight difference. The fit in my hand was what I was referencing. And yes, that carnival really keeps me busy
I guess you're just a bit upset with the oil field, not gonna be able to get those truck nuts for your degenerate family
I guess you're just a bit upset with the oil field, not gonna be able to get those truck nuts for your degenerate family
Posted on 3/21/16 at 11:15 am to public_enemy
quote:
I was there saturday. I didn't say anything about weight difference.
But they're the exact same if you want to get really down to it, you can say that the slide for a 40 has a slightly larger cutout to accommodate the larger barrel diameter and that the recoil spring is slightly heavier, but you can't feel those things. It only changes when going from a 9/40 slide/frame to a 45 slide/frame
Posted on 3/21/16 at 11:26 am to public_enemy
most (I said most) .40 pistols are identical in every way to their 9mm counterparts as far as the grip, length, width, weight and any other way you could feel in your hand
Posted on 3/21/16 at 12:41 pm to Carson123987
There's one problem with your statement. The p320 has different grip sizes. Now I can get the same grip in any caliber, but I prefer 40. Get over yourself
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