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Started By
Message
re: 2012 Louisiana Waterfowl Hunter Survey
Posted on 3/16/12 at 1:16 am to TigerTreyjpg
Posted on 3/16/12 at 1:16 am to TigerTreyjpg
You have some other misconceptions or at least incomplete arguments:
Not true. They are required by law to purchase only from willing sellers, AND the state has to approve the purchase. I have personally been required to travel to Washington DC to testify in front of the Migratory Bird Conservation Commission approving of NWR land purchases. We are currently in a bit of a dispute over property purchased for the Grand Cote NWR because LDWF insists those additional acres be open for hunting before we will approve the acquisition.
The Feds can not just purchase whatever they please.
I have no doubt that purchase of NWR property has removed hunting opportunities that previously existed. So has leasing (commonplace for us, but a HUGE issue in northern states where many hunters have routinely hunted in areas that are now leased by just a few) , conversion, and development. But NWRs have also provided hunting opportunity. I once summarized the harvest data from Sabine NWR and compared it to 2 private leases in SW Louisiana that allowed me to see their harvest records. Sabine provided opportunity for FAR more individual hunters at a cost of FAR fewer ducks per hunter than the private leases. That was back during the 30/3 days when suggestions were made that maybe we should stop hunting on NWRs. But when you consider the dead ducks per duck license or duck stamp sold, NWRs (or other public hunting areas) were better for conservation and maintaining hunter numbers than private hunting grounds (where fewer hunters killed more ducks ..... the whole reason hunters lease or buy their own ground).
I grew up in California, and started hunting in 1975 at the age of 15. I killed over a thousand ducks at Delevan NWR, Sutter NWR, Colusa NWR, Sacramento NWR, Tule Lake NWR, San Luis NWR, etc. When I moved to Texas in 1986, I killed hundreds of ducks on Anahuac NWR, McFaddin NWR, and San Bernard NWR. Since I moved to Louisiana in 1989, I've killed hundreds of birds at Sabine, Lacassine, Delta Breton, Mandalay, and Bayou Cocodrie NWRs. And when I worked in Vicksburg, MS in 1994 and 1995, I killed ducks at Panther Swamp NWR (but spent most of my time on Delta National Forest and Mahannah WMA). I've killed hundreds of ducks on the WPAs of Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota, all part of the NWR system. I am indebted to the NWR system for providing hunting opportunity for me and many thousands like me.
Lastly, you haven't acknowledged the other role of refuge .... that of attracting and holding birds in an area. Why do high-dollar duck clubs have refuge (sanctuary) if it only keeps ducks away from their hunters? Why are so many hunting clubs concentrated on property around NWRs? Clearly, that refuge habitat serves other purposes than just keeping hunters from ducks.
So what is the net effect of National Wildlife Refuges on bird populations, hunting opportunities, and hunting success?
Again, I go back to my original statement about not being sure about the "ultimate truth" but I see plenty of positives.
quote:
The federal government is the only entity with the resources, ability, and desire to manifestly purchase any duck hole it wants.
Not true. They are required by law to purchase only from willing sellers, AND the state has to approve the purchase. I have personally been required to travel to Washington DC to testify in front of the Migratory Bird Conservation Commission approving of NWR land purchases. We are currently in a bit of a dispute over property purchased for the Grand Cote NWR because LDWF insists those additional acres be open for hunting before we will approve the acquisition.
The Feds can not just purchase whatever they please.
quote:
If you truly believe that the establishment of the refuge system hasn't hurt hunters opportunities in the field, then you either have not hunted at all, or just started. Believe me, it has.
I have no doubt that purchase of NWR property has removed hunting opportunities that previously existed. So has leasing (commonplace for us, but a HUGE issue in northern states where many hunters have routinely hunted in areas that are now leased by just a few) , conversion, and development. But NWRs have also provided hunting opportunity. I once summarized the harvest data from Sabine NWR and compared it to 2 private leases in SW Louisiana that allowed me to see their harvest records. Sabine provided opportunity for FAR more individual hunters at a cost of FAR fewer ducks per hunter than the private leases. That was back during the 30/3 days when suggestions were made that maybe we should stop hunting on NWRs. But when you consider the dead ducks per duck license or duck stamp sold, NWRs (or other public hunting areas) were better for conservation and maintaining hunter numbers than private hunting grounds (where fewer hunters killed more ducks ..... the whole reason hunters lease or buy their own ground).
I grew up in California, and started hunting in 1975 at the age of 15. I killed over a thousand ducks at Delevan NWR, Sutter NWR, Colusa NWR, Sacramento NWR, Tule Lake NWR, San Luis NWR, etc. When I moved to Texas in 1986, I killed hundreds of ducks on Anahuac NWR, McFaddin NWR, and San Bernard NWR. Since I moved to Louisiana in 1989, I've killed hundreds of birds at Sabine, Lacassine, Delta Breton, Mandalay, and Bayou Cocodrie NWRs. And when I worked in Vicksburg, MS in 1994 and 1995, I killed ducks at Panther Swamp NWR (but spent most of my time on Delta National Forest and Mahannah WMA). I've killed hundreds of ducks on the WPAs of Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota, all part of the NWR system. I am indebted to the NWR system for providing hunting opportunity for me and many thousands like me.
Lastly, you haven't acknowledged the other role of refuge .... that of attracting and holding birds in an area. Why do high-dollar duck clubs have refuge (sanctuary) if it only keeps ducks away from their hunters? Why are so many hunting clubs concentrated on property around NWRs? Clearly, that refuge habitat serves other purposes than just keeping hunters from ducks.
So what is the net effect of National Wildlife Refuges on bird populations, hunting opportunities, and hunting success?
Again, I go back to my original statement about not being sure about the "ultimate truth" but I see plenty of positives.
This post was edited on 3/16/12 at 1:23 am
0
Posted on 3/16/12 at 1:33 am to VernonPLSUfan
quote:
The only thing I would like to see changed as far as Louisiana's duck hunting is concerned is letting parishes that are not prevalent waterfowl areas, such as Vernon, Beauregard and other predominantly pine forest parishes with hardly any lakes, marshes, wetlands to speak of, and let their splits run straight thru. I don't care if we lose 15 days of the year in which somebody told me would happen if you ran the season straight thru.
Some of the contacts that influenced my decision to look into a 3rd zone were from Northwest Louisiana hunters that suggested the same thing. According to them, the first split is good and then the split shuts them down during a prime migration period. Shortly after the second split opens, the hunting goes sour and the late season is poor. They are more than willing to trade the last 2 weeks of the season in January for additional hunt-days in early-December. Those guys typically hunted reservoirs in NW LA.
When I publicly discussed this line of thinking, I then received feedback from other NW Louisiana hunters that think that is crazy. According to them, NW LA needs a later season, not earlier. These guys typically hunt backwaters along the Red River, oxbows, and flooded fields.
I've got a feeling the current season structure is a decent compromise, but that is what the survey is for ...... to get a better large-scale understanding of what hunters in that region would like to see.
Posted on 3/16/12 at 1:50 am to duckaholic25
quote:
We need to try and find whoever it was that got the old crow field turned back into a shooting hole and see how they did it.
Boeuf WMA is a state area, and a state legislator convinced LDWF to remove the waterfowl refuge at the Crow Field through some budgeting pressure. I wasn't involved in the decision, so that is just what I've been told (ie. hearsay). Although we do not get money from the legislature, they control how we can spend our money and it's one way they exert control of our activities. We are often requested to alter activities on WMAs via the representative political process. One recent example is the use of personal watercraft (jet-skis) on WMAs, which we are opposed to.
That happens pretty regular on state WMAs, not so much on federal NWRs.
This post was edited on 3/16/12 at 9:35 am
Posted on 3/16/12 at 2:55 am to Lreynolds
My best mallard hunts ever have been on a NWR(BCNWR).
Of course, once they were shot a couple of seasons in there, they never came back. Even in years where we actually had enough water.
Of course, once they were shot a couple of seasons in there, they never came back. Even in years where we actually had enough water.
Posted on 3/16/12 at 2:57 am to Lreynolds
doublay post
This post was edited on 3/16/12 at 2:58 am
Posted on 3/16/12 at 6:46 am to AlxTgr
Refuge systems help.
DU doesn't dump corn out to short stop ducks. Anyone that says they do looses their credibility with me right there.
The biggest thing in my opinion that has hurt our duck numbers over the years is the changing of farming practices. Look at the numbers of acres in rice production in Arkansas from 30 years ago it's not near what it is now. Also on top of that 30 years ago duck hunting wasn't a business like it is now. Now a days some farmers make 50% of their income off leasing their fields so the rice fields are all buffaloed and such to make duck access the best. 30 years ago 80% of the fields were stubble and hence less places with "ideal" duck habitat.
Then go further north to the corn belt. THe practices for working a field after harvest are completely different now then they were 30 years ago again changing food and habitat sources for ducks.
As far as NWRs I have been fortunate to hunt in and around Delta NWR for the past 35 years. Yes Delta is one of the most pristine areas for hunting in the entire MS river delta in my opinion. However when it's open or closed it doesn't change the birds in the area. Tide moves them around more than the refuge. The biggest difference now is the number of pintails. That isn't the refuge's fault that's the work of decreased numbers of pintail and loss of duck potato from saltwater intrusion.
35 years ago it was nothing to have five of us go down river and kill 50 pintail drakes in an hour. Now on a great day you could still do that but it's the exception rather than the rule. However the NWR has nothing to do with that.
I have had the pleasure to get to know L reynolds as a friend over the years and he is one of the best things for duck hunting in Louisiana right now. He is also one of the few people that will enter a forum like this and debate facts these guys can easily get into hot water over these kinds of things here.
That's my rant, too long for many to read.
DU doesn't dump corn out to short stop ducks. Anyone that says they do looses their credibility with me right there.
The biggest thing in my opinion that has hurt our duck numbers over the years is the changing of farming practices. Look at the numbers of acres in rice production in Arkansas from 30 years ago it's not near what it is now. Also on top of that 30 years ago duck hunting wasn't a business like it is now. Now a days some farmers make 50% of their income off leasing their fields so the rice fields are all buffaloed and such to make duck access the best. 30 years ago 80% of the fields were stubble and hence less places with "ideal" duck habitat.
Then go further north to the corn belt. THe practices for working a field after harvest are completely different now then they were 30 years ago again changing food and habitat sources for ducks.
As far as NWRs I have been fortunate to hunt in and around Delta NWR for the past 35 years. Yes Delta is one of the most pristine areas for hunting in the entire MS river delta in my opinion. However when it's open or closed it doesn't change the birds in the area. Tide moves them around more than the refuge. The biggest difference now is the number of pintails. That isn't the refuge's fault that's the work of decreased numbers of pintail and loss of duck potato from saltwater intrusion.
35 years ago it was nothing to have five of us go down river and kill 50 pintail drakes in an hour. Now on a great day you could still do that but it's the exception rather than the rule. However the NWR has nothing to do with that.
I have had the pleasure to get to know L reynolds as a friend over the years and he is one of the best things for duck hunting in Louisiana right now. He is also one of the few people that will enter a forum like this and debate facts these guys can easily get into hot water over these kinds of things here.
That's my rant, too long for many to read.
Posted on 3/16/12 at 1:01 pm to Da Hammer
quote:
It reminds me of the exact same discussion with Phil Robertson during the days when he and the late George Franklin were trying to establish a pen-reared mallard release program in NE Louisiana (yes, I was the LDWF NAWMP Coordinator at that time and was working with Mr. Robertson an Mr. Frankling
How did that project work out for them?
Posted on 3/18/12 at 11:06 pm to TigerTreyjpg
Not very well.
It is against state law to release mallards into the wild. You can have a "shooting preserve" or "tower shoots" with mallards trained to fly to feed ponds, but no free-flying releases. So through the political process, they got the LWF Commission to approve it as a "research project". My role with LDWF was to actually DO the research project, and I enlisted Dr. Frank Rohwer and a graduate student to implement it. But Mr. Franklin and Mr. Robertson didn't really care about the research, and they objected to a number of things like funding the study and using standard USFWS bands instead of their "Let em Fly" bands (so we could make legitimate comparisons of harvest and survival rates). So we had not reached agreement, and a permit had not been issued when they brought birds into the state, raised them in a feed pen, and they had begun dispersing into the nearby habitat ...... all against the law.
But I think those differences could have been worked out had it not been for the USFWS regulation against hunting over live decoys. Those pen-reared birds weren't going very far; they were using habitat on Mr. Franklin's and Mr. Robertson's property adjacent to the pen and would return to the pen to feed at that time (they would have been cut off well before the duck season opened). Because those birds would likely attract wild ducks, USFWS law enforcement warned that hunting that property would very likely represent hunting over live decoys. However, they would never define for us what would constitute that. They would only say they would investigate, and then respond appropriately.
Our last meeting was in Rep. Rodney Alexander's office with representatives from Rep. Alexander's, then Representative Bobby Jindal's and Sen. David Vitter's staffs, as well as the Asst. Secretary and I for LDWF, 2 USFWS agents and their supervisor from Jackson, MS. The USFWS would not give us anything concrete about what would be and what would not be considered hunting over live decoys, except that they would investigate and respond appropriately. So Mr. Franklin and Mr. Robertson risked game violations and their property being closed to hunting if these pen-reared mallards created a situation that could be prosecuted as hunting over live decoys, and they couldn't know until it happened.
So the project was abandoned, at least for the time being, and most of those birds were killed when they returned to the pen to feed. Of course, you can never get them all, and I heard that at least 1 "Let em Fly" banded mallard was taken during the youth waterfowl weekend.
The worst part of the whole story is that Mr. Franklin was killed in an ATV mishap less than a year later. You can read a little about Mr. Franklin at:
LINK
It is against state law to release mallards into the wild. You can have a "shooting preserve" or "tower shoots" with mallards trained to fly to feed ponds, but no free-flying releases. So through the political process, they got the LWF Commission to approve it as a "research project". My role with LDWF was to actually DO the research project, and I enlisted Dr. Frank Rohwer and a graduate student to implement it. But Mr. Franklin and Mr. Robertson didn't really care about the research, and they objected to a number of things like funding the study and using standard USFWS bands instead of their "Let em Fly" bands (so we could make legitimate comparisons of harvest and survival rates). So we had not reached agreement, and a permit had not been issued when they brought birds into the state, raised them in a feed pen, and they had begun dispersing into the nearby habitat ...... all against the law.
But I think those differences could have been worked out had it not been for the USFWS regulation against hunting over live decoys. Those pen-reared birds weren't going very far; they were using habitat on Mr. Franklin's and Mr. Robertson's property adjacent to the pen and would return to the pen to feed at that time (they would have been cut off well before the duck season opened). Because those birds would likely attract wild ducks, USFWS law enforcement warned that hunting that property would very likely represent hunting over live decoys. However, they would never define for us what would constitute that. They would only say they would investigate, and then respond appropriately.
Our last meeting was in Rep. Rodney Alexander's office with representatives from Rep. Alexander's, then Representative Bobby Jindal's and Sen. David Vitter's staffs, as well as the Asst. Secretary and I for LDWF, 2 USFWS agents and their supervisor from Jackson, MS. The USFWS would not give us anything concrete about what would be and what would not be considered hunting over live decoys, except that they would investigate and respond appropriately. So Mr. Franklin and Mr. Robertson risked game violations and their property being closed to hunting if these pen-reared mallards created a situation that could be prosecuted as hunting over live decoys, and they couldn't know until it happened.
So the project was abandoned, at least for the time being, and most of those birds were killed when they returned to the pen to feed. Of course, you can never get them all, and I heard that at least 1 "Let em Fly" banded mallard was taken during the youth waterfowl weekend.
The worst part of the whole story is that Mr. Franklin was killed in an ATV mishap less than a year later. You can read a little about Mr. Franklin at:
LINK
Posted on 3/18/12 at 11:20 pm to Lreynolds
The best habitat I have ever seen was 5000 k plus acres in SD and it was leased by a company in Chicago that had a corporate lodge nearby.
They had small levees built around cornfields that kept the water about 12-18 inches deep. Of. Course the corn was not harvested and even when it froze.....,duck could still reach the corn...
The habit management changes up and down the flyway are indeed much more extreme than perhaps we all comprehend....
btw from what I was told that group in SD only made about 10-15 hunts a year but they were good ones...
They had small levees built around cornfields that kept the water about 12-18 inches deep. Of. Course the corn was not harvested and even when it froze.....,duck could still reach the corn...
The habit management changes up and down the flyway are indeed much more extreme than perhaps we all comprehend....
btw from what I was told that group in SD only made about 10-15 hunts a year but they were good ones...
Posted on 3/19/12 at 6:41 am to Lreynolds
quote:by who?
those birds were killed
Posted on 3/19/12 at 1:05 pm to Ole Geauxt
bump..
Posted on 3/19/12 at 10:37 pm to Ole Geauxt
Mostly LDWF law enforcement, but I don't know everyone that participated.
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