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Started By
Message
Jindal, Sand Berms, Len Bahr
Posted on 7/6/10 at 9:28 am
Posted on 7/6/10 at 9:28 am
3
Posted on 7/6/10 at 9:41 am to Sid in Lakeshore
a few more articles that may be of interest
Scientists Skeptic about Sand Berms
Scientists question if sand berms are a good idea
Sand berms to be built to hold off oil from Louisiana coast
Booms, Berms Offer Imperfect Solutions to Oil Spill's Advance in Gulf
Rob Young - Western Carolina University
Rob Young: Scientifc American
Greg Stone: LSU - sand transport expert; direct of coastal studies
Legnthy but several professors and their view points
Scientists Skeptic about Sand Berms
Scientists question if sand berms are a good idea
Sand berms to be built to hold off oil from Louisiana coast
Booms, Berms Offer Imperfect Solutions to Oil Spill's Advance in Gulf
Rob Young - Western Carolina University
Rob Young: Scientifc American
Greg Stone: LSU - sand transport expert; direct of coastal studies
Legnthy but several professors and their view points
This post was edited on 7/6/10 at 9:45 am
Posted on 7/6/10 at 9:47 am to Sid in Lakeshore
TP has been really hard for me to read because they have had a tendency to do a hard left lean. I lost it with them when they tried their hardest to discredit Billy Nungesser regardless of the fact he's been the most hands on politician since this disaster began.
Hardly worth the time to talk about environmental impacts of sand at this point considering the damage the oil will do for the rest our lifetimes. AT least Jindal made the decision to do something compared to the WH's stance of do nothing.
Hardly worth the time to talk about environmental impacts of sand at this point considering the damage the oil will do for the rest our lifetimes. AT least Jindal made the decision to do something compared to the WH's stance of do nothing.
Posted on 7/6/10 at 10:37 am to LSUKNUT
quote:
AT least Jindal made the decision to do something compared to the WH's stance of do nothing.
That's not much consolation when the oil washes into the marsh anyway and BP and the oil industry in general is off the hook for the damage due to local governmental interference despite prior warning from recognized experts.
Posted on 7/6/10 at 10:51 am to Sid in Lakeshore
BP should be the only one held accountable and as far as maintaining the clean up efforts, that was the deal Obama made with BP for the $20 billion -
1. Not responsible for business's or workers due to the moratorium.
2. Not responsible for cleaning up anything other than the oil.
My bet is once the relief well is drilled, everyone has verified the well is secure and satisfactory enough to walk away from, BP will be out of The Gulf leaving cleanup to the federal & state governments.
1. Not responsible for business's or workers due to the moratorium.
2. Not responsible for cleaning up anything other than the oil.
My bet is once the relief well is drilled, everyone has verified the well is secure and satisfactory enough to walk away from, BP will be out of The Gulf leaving cleanup to the federal & state governments.
Posted on 7/6/10 at 12:12 pm to LSUKNUT
What about the oyster fisherman who's beds have come back positive for hydrocarbons. They cant harvest now and may not for years.
Shrimpers and crabbers?
Have any credible sources why the Berm is such a good idea?
They are getting the sand from very important Blue Crab spawning grounds. May impact the fishery for years to come
Oil blockage is highly debated and may even do more harm than good in keep the oil in the marsh and prevent natural flushing.
Sand supply is limited. Louisiana has just kissed goodbye anymore federal dollars for coastal restoration.
Berm blockade will just move the wave energy down shore and erode away a natural barrier island
Berms will be very short term as we saw with Alex not even anywhere close caused a few failures in the berm and millions wasted.
There is a reason the vast majority of scientists around the country are against the idea. Please read some of the literature.
Shrimpers and crabbers?
Have any credible sources why the Berm is such a good idea?
They are getting the sand from very important Blue Crab spawning grounds. May impact the fishery for years to come
Oil blockage is highly debated and may even do more harm than good in keep the oil in the marsh and prevent natural flushing.
Sand supply is limited. Louisiana has just kissed goodbye anymore federal dollars for coastal restoration.
Berm blockade will just move the wave energy down shore and erode away a natural barrier island
Berms will be very short term as we saw with Alex not even anywhere close caused a few failures in the berm and millions wasted.
There is a reason the vast majority of scientists around the country are against the idea. Please read some of the literature.
Posted on 7/6/10 at 1:55 pm to Mudminnow
this is going to get bad
Posted on 7/6/10 at 8:15 pm to Mudminnow
Muddy convinced me that building the berms might not be a good idea. It took awhile but what he is saying makes a lot of sense.
Posted on 7/6/10 at 8:40 pm to Sid in Lakeshore
I knew Len Bahr back in the 80's when he owned a running store that was the precursor to Varsity. Nice guy, very well intentioned. Good chance he's even right. But the guy is much more a political animal than a scientific one. And whatever position Jindal takes on anything he will be in opposition. Yes, he is probably right but take it with a grain of salt and read some other opinions as well.
Posted on 7/6/10 at 9:04 pm to Tigris
Yes probably more political than science but read the links I posted and he's not alone on this issue. 
Posted on 7/6/10 at 9:08 pm to Mudminnow
quote:
he's not alone on this issue.
nor on the issue of the rock berms
quote:
Coastal scientists differentiate between "hard structures" such as rocks and soft, natural structures such as sand islands or marshes.
"The softer parts of the system (e.g. the sandy barriers between the inlets) will then become the weak spot as the inlets have hardened and constricted," Denise Reed, a coastal scientist at the University of New Orleans, wrote in comments to the corps. "It is possible that hardening the inlets makes breaching of the islands more likely -- both resulting in additional erosion and more pathways for oil to move in from the Gulf."
In addition to the Environmental Protection Agency and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the state's own scientific review panel, the Horizon Oil Spill Science and Engineering Review Team, expressed numerous concerns with the rock jetty plan more than a week ago.
A separate group of 15 coastal scientists from Louisiana universities and national environmental groups expressed concerns about the plan in a letter sent to the corps last week.
"Limited, if any, scientific input has been incorporated from outside experts, even when offered," the letter stated. "This process is inadequate for an endeavor of this scope of potential impacts and risks. Prior to issuance of a permit, we recommend incorporating science and technical expertise into the planning process ... We also request to be included in future oil-fighting strategies planning."
LINK
Posted on 7/6/10 at 9:21 pm to Decatur
The rocks were held up for this same issue. There was no plan for removal. In a year you can do much more damage than good with the rock berms.
Posted on 7/7/10 at 2:24 am to Mudminnow
What you don't read.
The sand dredging was shut down and ordered to relocate to a different source of sand further away. This puts a delay of about a week. A week wasted.
The sand that they were dredging was going to be replaced. In a matter of weeks by moving dredge material to that location after the berms had been completed.
Some of these berms were already part of the wish list for coastal erosion before the oil spill. Yet now all of a sudden it is a bad idea.
Forget trying to figure out if the berms are a good idea on your own. Simply look at is and more importantly what isn't being reported to figure out if you are being fed a bunch of lies and misinformation. Something smells fishy.
And you have to keep in mind what that the question is not if there are negatives to the dredging. The question is which is worse. Dredging or not dredging.
The sand dredging was shut down and ordered to relocate to a different source of sand further away. This puts a delay of about a week. A week wasted.
The sand that they were dredging was going to be replaced. In a matter of weeks by moving dredge material to that location after the berms had been completed.
Some of these berms were already part of the wish list for coastal erosion before the oil spill. Yet now all of a sudden it is a bad idea.
Forget trying to figure out if the berms are a good idea on your own. Simply look at is and more importantly what isn't being reported to figure out if you are being fed a bunch of lies and misinformation. Something smells fishy.
And you have to keep in mind what that the question is not if there are negatives to the dredging. The question is which is worse. Dredging or not dredging.
Posted on 7/7/10 at 8:04 am to omegaman66
As they say, follow the money. The reason that it takes 20 years for the corps to complete a project is because these scientist get funding to study the impacts of any project. The longer it takes to study, the longer they receive a paycheck. Fast tracking any project takes future funding for studies out of their pockets.
These scientist would rather see La. disapear than give up their studies. We could build a berm twice as long with all the paper they have used printing up their studies. Those studies have not produced one acre of new land anywhere in La. Might as well make use of those studies somehow, use it to build the berm.
Scientist are no less greedy than a contractor who over bills for their work. What they have going for them is that, as a people, we want to have faith in something or someone. We have a belief in science, but science can be skewed to support just about any hypotisis we want it
to support. What the scientist are concerned with is that their future study funding for barrier island restoration will dry up if they are built today. That is why they have made the state design the sand berms to fail. Instead of getting a dual benefit of rebuilding the barrier islands by adding on to them and rebuilding their historical shapes and sizes creating a line of defense, they forced the state to pump sand into open water where it will wash away within 6 months. What a waste of 350 million dollars.
The governor has been trying to use common sense in this matter. Why not rebuild the barrier islands at the same time we create a barrier to the oil. The restoration of the islands were slated to be built anyway. But you see, the corps and the scientist havent gotten all their reseach funding yet, so, they have objections to this common sense approach and use "science" to justify their objections.
These scientist would rather see La. disapear than give up their studies. We could build a berm twice as long with all the paper they have used printing up their studies. Those studies have not produced one acre of new land anywhere in La. Might as well make use of those studies somehow, use it to build the berm.
Scientist are no less greedy than a contractor who over bills for their work. What they have going for them is that, as a people, we want to have faith in something or someone. We have a belief in science, but science can be skewed to support just about any hypotisis we want it
to support. What the scientist are concerned with is that their future study funding for barrier island restoration will dry up if they are built today. That is why they have made the state design the sand berms to fail. Instead of getting a dual benefit of rebuilding the barrier islands by adding on to them and rebuilding their historical shapes and sizes creating a line of defense, they forced the state to pump sand into open water where it will wash away within 6 months. What a waste of 350 million dollars.
The governor has been trying to use common sense in this matter. Why not rebuild the barrier islands at the same time we create a barrier to the oil. The restoration of the islands were slated to be built anyway. But you see, the corps and the scientist havent gotten all their reseach funding yet, so, they have objections to this common sense approach and use "science" to justify their objections.
Posted on 7/8/10 at 11:57 am to TIGA 80
quote:
TIGA 80
Please sir, list your qualifications vis-a-vis Coastal Geomorphology.
Half cocked, "common sense" approaches to federal and private construction projects are largely to blame for getting us in the fix we are in now. You are familiar with Einstein's definition of insanity, aren't you?
Posted on 7/8/10 at 1:38 pm to TIGA 80
quote:
These scientist would rather see La. disapear than give up their studies
You could have stopped right there.
They (Jindal and engineering firm) submitted a poor plan. Once the project started, the contractor couldn't even follow the plan submitted. The shutdown was warranted.
This post was edited on 7/8/10 at 1:42 pm
Posted on 7/9/10 at 7:16 am to Kickadawgitfeelsgood
quote:
They (Jindal and engineering firm) submitted a poor plan. Once the project started, the contractor couldn't even follow the plan submitted. The shutdown was warranted.
No Sir, The plan that Jindal submitted was a compromise plan to appease the environmentalist. Jindal wanted to rebuild the barrier islands to their orgiginal size and have those rebuilt islands act as the barrier to the oil reaching the marshes. The environmentalist, who have a long term vested interest in the rebuilding of the barrier islands insisted that the berms be built out in open water and not tied in to the land mass of the barrier islands. The environmentalist insisted that the berms be designed to wash away within 6 months.
The Governor was trying to get a dual benefit out of spending $350 million and it was stepping on the toes of those Federal agencies that depend on their funding by having projects that take 20 years to study and construct.
I have been involved in coastal restoration or over 12 years and i know how the system works. Whatever funding is allocated to a project, the sponsoring agency such as EPA, NOAA or Corps takes 50% of those funds to subliment their salaries and operations. Private industry or local govt can have all the eng. surveys and wetland impacts done for 10% of the cost of the project. They take so long to do their studies, that by the time they are ready for construction the landscape has change so much that the studies are no longer viable and have to be studied again. Then they use the construction funds to fund the new studies.
Its the dirty little secret that most of the public doesnt know. Why else would it take 20 yrs for a project to be completed? Its the inaction, the studies and the time it takes that has caused La. to erode away.
Posted on 7/9/10 at 8:02 am to Sid in Lakeshore
quote:
Please sir, list your qualifications vis-a-vis Coastal Geomorphology.
Half cocked, "common sense" approaches to federal and private construction projects are largely to blame for getting us in the fix we are in now. You are familiar with Einstein's definition of insanity, aren't you?
i have been on boards for 12 years dealing with Coastal restoration and have seen projects proposed by different Federal and state agencies during my tenure on these boards. I'll give you an example of govt efficiency. We have had over 20 projects deauthorized after years of studies and funding only to find out the agency never obtained permission from the Land owner to do the project. It would seem that the agency would have obtained that permission before spending all the funds. This shows how the agency really is only interested in the funding and not actually constructing the project. This also shows some signs of, as you call it, insanity.
The barrier islands have been studied for years and Im sure that a plan to restore them has been studied, surveyed and engineered. Why couldnt those plans which im sure exist, be used in the sand berm concept. I know that is what the Gov. wanted to accomplish, stop the oil and rebuild the barrier islands at the same time. La. cant wait 20yrs to rebuild the barrier islands and The Gov saw this as the opportunity to get it done now. The stake holders in the long term approach forced the governors hand to do it the only way they would allow and they made sure that the project would look foolish and that it would fail. Remember the Governor had to go to those stakeholders to get the permit approved.
Bottom line to all this is that the oil getting to our marshes will be more environmentally damaging than what a sand berm will be. The Enviro Scientist can only submit what might happen. They believe that a further erosion of the islands would occur. Well let me ask you a question, how much more will the islands erode in 20 yrs waiting on them to start construction of the restoration.
Posted on 7/9/10 at 11:37 am to TIGA 80
quote:
No Sir, The plan that Jindal submitted was a compromise plan to appease the environmentalist.
No it was not. My statement is accurate.
You failed to address the failure of the contractor to follow the project plan. Any reason why? Without question, this would lead any project manager to shut down the work, would it not?
Posted on 7/9/10 at 1:01 pm to Kickadawgitfeelsgood
An Agreement was made to use certain borrow areas for the dredging with the understanding that those borrow areas would be replenished after the project was completed. Once the judge ruled againts the moratorium on drilling the Feds reneged on the agreement and shut the project down forcing the state to have to lay out two miles of discharge line from the dredges and lost over a week of work.
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