re: Would you refuse to speak to your adult kids if they changed their religious beliefs?

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Both sets of families have cut them off

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Devil in the details

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You are right, I am being an a-hole for labeling billions of people around the world as lacking the insanity it would take to be a true believer. God, how disgusting is that to accuse billions of people around the world of being sane and not insane...disgusting.

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You have to be insane to trust that God is good, have faith in him for forgiveness and to be a light in the world? I wouldn’t fly a plane into a building because Jesus said it’s wrong to murder and God wrote on my heart that it’s wrong to murder people.


Jesus asks that I do 3 things.


1) admit that I am a flawed human being that even when I try to do good things, can often end up hurting other people. I cannot fix myself because if I could I would’ve by now.

2) have faith that he is what he said he is and I can be forgiven on his account.

3) go be a light in the world and an ambassador for him.



That’s it. No plane attacks. No subway bombings. That’s all that’s required of me. And I feel that's a much less radical position than to think that a non eternal universe was born out of nothing that was acted upon by nothing and became a whole massive amount of something.

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I simply have no words for this.

Am I reading this right that in your opinion free will doesn't exist because a baby can't kill themselves immediately?

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In part, yes. The point is that one can not choose to exist or not exist at all therefore the concept of free will is fatally flawed. No one has ever decided to exist...many have decided to end their existence.

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You have to be insane to trust that God is good, have faith in him for forgiveness and to be a light in the world? I wouldn’t fly a plane into a building because Jesus said it’s wrong to murder and God wrote on my heart that it’s wrong to murder people.


Jesus asks that I do 3 things.


1) admit that I am a flawed human being that even when I try to do good things, can often end up hurting other people. I cannot fix myself because if I could I would’ve by now.

2) have faith that he is what he said he is and I can be forgiven on his account.

3) go be a light in the world and an ambassador for him.



That’s it. No plane attacks. No subway bombings. That’s all that’s required of me. And I feel that's a much less radical position than to think that a non eternal universe was born out of nothing that was acted upon by nothing and became a whole massive amount of something.

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I agree. But what if your god starting telling you to fly a plane into a building? You would question that, no? You would seek help, no? If that help did not stop your god from telling you to do so would you do it? I am guessing no...therefore you question your god and do not sincerely believe in it. Your faith is wanting....and that is a GOOD thing. To do otherwise is almost universally considered insane except in groups where such insanity is viewed as faith....

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I have stopped doing wrong things many times my friend and the times I had a choice to do something wrong or not and did not are far more numerous than the times I chose to do the wrong thing. Why have I done wrong things? Because I am human and as such not perfect...sometimes it was ignorance, I did not fully understand why it was wrong, sometimes it was because I wanted to do it more than I did not, sometimes it was because I knew no one but me would know....but the times I did not do the wrong thing are probably 10,000 to 1. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes.

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So you're conceding that human beings, atheist or religious, have not transcended making mistakes and still cause pain to others at times and it really didn't have to do with a lack of willpower?

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You would be correct if I did indeed continue to hurt the people around me. That is not the case. I have hurt others, sometimes inadvertently, on rarer occasions intentionally. I do not continue to do this and do not do it on an ongoing basis or a regular basis. Usually it is a lack of fully understanding the other persons position...ignorance on my part. Again, I am not perfect and do not need forgiveness from some higher power to live with my imperfection...but I will try to receive forgiveness from an individual if there is any way possible to do so...

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You married? Have kids? You don't bite your wife's head off sometimes? You aren't short with your kids? You've transcended causing pain to your loved ones? Because secular research tells us that oftentimes, the people we hurt the most are the ones closest to us.

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I agree. But what if your god starting telling you to fly a plane into a building? You would question that, no? You would seek help, no? If that help did not stop your god from telling you to do so would you do it? I am guessing no...therefore you question your god and do not sincerely believe in it. Your faith is wanting....and that is a GOOD thing. To do otherwise is almost universally considered insane except in groups where such insanity is viewed as faith....

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I agree that there's nothing wrong with digging further into your faith during a season of doubt. I think some of the strongest believers have been through the storms of uncertainty. But that wasn't the point.




You made the point that anyone who has any doubt ever is not a true believer which is just objectively false. Jesus had a disciple called Doubting Thomas.

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As a sentient being you never had a choice to exist at all is the point.

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Because you say so? You're speaking matter of factly for something you can't know definitely. Do you know with certainty that you did not make choice to be the first sperm to the egg?

There is no reason I would ever not speak to my child. No matter any terrible things she does.

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So you're conceding that human beings, atheist or religious, have not transcended making mistakes and still cause pain to others at times and it really didn't have to do with a lack of willpower?

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No, I conceded that at times the pain I have inflicted upon others was due to a lack of willpower and even a desire to get what I wanted. I also stated that it is often due to ignorance on my part in that I did not fully understand what the results of my actions would be...the latter is most often the source but I have lied, cheated and stole and caused others pain because it was expedient or lead to me getting what I want, as have ALL humans.

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You married? Have kids? You don't bite your wife's head off sometimes? You aren't short with your kids? You've transcended causing pain to your loved ones? Because secular research tells us that oftentimes, the people we hurt the most are the ones closest to us.

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I am married and I do have kids. I have indeed snapped at my wife and I have been short with my kids. Almost always this is because I am ignorant of the pain it will cause them. It is also often due to frustration and most of the time frustration that is not their doing. I have even, rarely, intentionally said something to one of them I knew would be hurtful. I am human...I admit freely that I have not transgressed humanity. I do not, however, do any of this often because I am a decent person. When I do it I own it and apologize and seek THEIR forgiveness, which usually requires that I merely acknowledge that I was wrong to do it...they, being human and also capable of inflicting pain for a myriad of reasons, accept that because the wealth of their experience with me has taught them that for every pennies worth of hurt there is a wealth of love and support and empathy. I do not struggle not to do this as was suggested....I do not do it far more often than I do because it is how I want to treat them. It is not a struggle as was suggested....it is very easy not to do it.

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Every last one of us in existence decided to be the swimmer to win the race.

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So we had individual free will to be the swimmer, but another person or entity had the free will to be the egg and, hopefully, the 2 people who made both contributions agreed to do so without our input at all...