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re: Would it have been better if Germany would have won WW1? The First One.
Posted on 5/9/16 at 10:20 pm to Darth_Vader
Posted on 5/9/16 at 10:20 pm to Darth_Vader
The British were excellent occupiers, they understood how to use imperial assets and conscripted forces to their advantage. Don't see the Germans conscripting Europe very successfully. Especially French, Dutch, Danish and Belgian men. They didn't even try to conscript them in WWII, and that fueled the continental European resistance forces.
In WWII some of the biggest German defeats on the continent were caused by German conscripts that didn't fight or quickly surrendered. Particularly the Poles, Romanians, Croats and Serbians. Can't train them, can't discipline them, can't use them.
In WWII some of the biggest German defeats on the continent were caused by German conscripts that didn't fight or quickly surrendered. Particularly the Poles, Romanians, Croats and Serbians. Can't train them, can't discipline them, can't use them.
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Posted on 5/9/16 at 10:22 pm to supatigah
quote:
The Germans were making overtures to Mexico during WWII. We know they intended to be a power in the Western Hemisphere.
I think you're getting your wars mixed up. It was during WWI that Germany made overtures to Mexico via the Zimmerman Affair. There were no German overtures to Mexico during WWII.
quote:
Operation Barbarossa ended that fortunately for us.
Again, I think you're confusing wars here.
Posted on 5/9/16 at 10:31 pm to Darth_Vader
Their overt relationship and support of Mexico began with the Zimmerman affair, true. What I am saying in the OPs hypothetical is that desire to imperialise The Latin countries would have been unfettered.
Under the OP: with peace on continental Europe they could have expanded their armies, increased their fleet and created an expeditionary force to send to Mexico. One here in the Western Hemisphere they would have had a foothold
Had Hitler not gotten bogged down in Stalingrad, he could have turned his attention to the long game which was ultimately world domination. At some point he would have had to establish his own foothold in Latin America to gain resources and prepare for fighting the US in Mexico
They never got that far either time. My point is the OP lays the fabric for a different outcome. One that potentially has us fighting much closer to home
Under the OP: with peace on continental Europe they could have expanded their armies, increased their fleet and created an expeditionary force to send to Mexico. One here in the Western Hemisphere they would have had a foothold
Had Hitler not gotten bogged down in Stalingrad, he could have turned his attention to the long game which was ultimately world domination. At some point he would have had to establish his own foothold in Latin America to gain resources and prepare for fighting the US in Mexico
They never got that far either time. My point is the OP lays the fabric for a different outcome. One that potentially has us fighting much closer to home
Posted on 5/9/16 at 10:36 pm to supatigah
quote:
The Germans were making overtures to Mexico during WWII. We know they intended to be a power in the Western Hemisphere.
Operation Barbarossa ended that fortunately for us.
You're getting your world wars mixed up. Germany made overtures to Mexico in World War I, not World War II. And the only reason they did this was because they were hoping the Mexicans could delay our army's arrival in France long enough for them to defeat the French and the British.
Relations between the United States and Mexico had improved significantly in the interwar period. As a result, the Mexican government declared war on Germany shortly after our entry into World War II.
This post was edited on 5/9/16 at 10:38 pm
Posted on 5/9/16 at 10:36 pm to supatigah
quote:
Their overt relationship and support of Mexico began with the Zimmerman affair, true. What I am saying in the OPs hypothetical is that desire to imperialise The Latin countries would have been unfettered. Under the OP: with peace on continental Europe they could have expanded their armies, increased their fleet and created an expeditionary force to send to Mexico. One here in the Western Hemisphere they would have had a foothold
Ah, Ok. I see what you're saying now. Yeah, had they tried gaining a foothold in the Western Hemisphere, especially Mexico, there would be war with the US more than likely.
Posted on 5/9/16 at 10:45 pm to RollTide1987
Under Operation Bolivar, Germany had covert agents throughout Central And South America. They had a stronghold with a radio tower in Argentina that wasn't stopped until 1944. They had radio towers in Brazil and Chile until 1945.
Officially they made overtures to Mexico during the Zimmerman Affair.
Unofficially they operated from Mexico all the way down to Chile from 1940-1945.
They were initially saboteurs and spies but they created a shadow organization in Brazil that could have been a real problem had the war gone a different way.
So under the OP, things could have been far different if Europe is occupied and they had the time to systematically set up for a Western Hemisphere offensive.
Officially they made overtures to Mexico during the Zimmerman Affair.
Unofficially they operated from Mexico all the way down to Chile from 1940-1945.
They were initially saboteurs and spies but they created a shadow organization in Brazil that could have been a real problem had the war gone a different way.
So under the OP, things could have been far different if Europe is occupied and they had the time to systematically set up for a Western Hemisphere offensive.
Posted on 5/10/16 at 1:30 pm to supatigah
quote:
Under Operation Bolivar, Germany had covert agents throughout Central And South America. They had a stronghold with a radio tower in Argentina that wasn't stopped until 1944.
We were intercepting and decoding their communications from Latin America virtually from the start. We allowed their operations to continue in Argentina because their coded messages were giving us valuable intelligence, such as the identities of German agents and South American collaborators. When the German hold of Europe began to collapse in 1944, their stations in Argentina and Brazil were of no more use to us, so we tipped off those respective governments who then moved in and shut down the bulk of their operations.
Their "clandestine" operation in South America was never a threat to us. We knew what they were up to, when they were up to it, and could have put a stop to it at any time.
This post was edited on 5/10/16 at 1:32 pm
Posted on 5/10/16 at 4:06 pm to fr33manator
The fact that humans have not engaged in thermo-nuclear warfare and annihilated each other yet makes me think I would not prefer another outcome. It may still happen but as of yet we are damn lucky events unfolded the way they did with exactly the right players at the right time.
Posted on 5/10/16 at 4:26 pm to fr33manator
Winning WWI helped bring the USA to the top of the "world's table".
I wonder what status the USA would have had today if Germany had prevailed.
I wonder what status the USA would have had today if Germany had prevailed.
Posted on 5/10/16 at 4:34 pm to fr33manator
going to read this now.
I do like controversial alt history for sure.
Like the what if Stalin and Hitler teamed up and never sided with Japan? American would likely have been a Nazi ally.
I love civil war alt history and WW2 alt history, tons of stuff on both out there.
I do like controversial alt history for sure.
Like the what if Stalin and Hitler teamed up and never sided with Japan? American would likely have been a Nazi ally.
I love civil war alt history and WW2 alt history, tons of stuff on both out there.
Posted on 5/10/16 at 4:36 pm to Napoleon
quote:
I love civil war alt historyband WW2 alt history, tons of stuff on both out there.
There is, and not enough WW1 stuff. And I find it more fascinating than the other two combined. Two eras meeting. A changing of the guard. New tech. New tactics.
It's just fascinating. I wish there were some good WW1 games out there
Posted on 5/10/16 at 4:36 pm to RollTide1987
You completely missed the point of everything I said
Posted on 5/10/16 at 4:37 pm to crazycubes
quote:
Winning WWI helped bring the USA to the top of the "world's table".
I wonder what status the USA would have had today if Germany had prevailed.
The Spanish American war and our "great white fleet" had us as a major naval power and our manufacturing was always there. I think had there not been a WW2 and WW2 were really WW1 then the US still could have ramped up enough to get to where it was. Our natural borders make attacking us next to impossible without an incredible Navy. (which the japanese had until they attacked us)
Odd that the concentration camp concept came not from the germans, but from the English (second Boer war) so many didn't really worry about the camps until the images started coming out. Had Hitler say not wanted genocide and had kept peace with Stalin, I would say by the 1960's they could have been posed for taking us out.
Posted on 5/10/16 at 4:38 pm to Napoleon
quote:
I love civil war alt history
Go check out Harry Turtledove's "Southern Victory" series
LINK
It starts with the South winning the Civil War in 1862, then goes to a second war between the North & South a few years later, then the North & South being on opposite sides in both WWI and WWII.
Posted on 5/10/16 at 4:38 pm to fr33manator
quote:
There is, and not enough WW1 stuff. And I find it more fascinating than the other two combined
You're right. As much as I know about the other wars, I know little of WW2 in comparison. There just isn't as much out there abou it. I have read diaries and memoirs from both sides, but there aren't any books on the level of a Stephen Ambrose Band of Brothers or the like.
If you know any good WW1 books, I'm interested.
Posted on 5/10/16 at 4:42 pm to Darth_Vader
I have them all on my shelf right now. I own every thing Turtledove has ever written in Alt history (I don't have his magical stuff books) I love the Southern Victory series. The whole Freedom party angle was excellent.
I also enjoyed his one off "Guns of the South" hell I even enjoyed his 11 part "alien invasion during WW2" books.
Though his two part Pearl Harbor take over series may have been the one that drew me in the most.
Scary scenario.
Had we lost Hawaii the war would have been totally different. In the books we lost the entire pacific fleet, including the carrier groups that were out at trials.
Turtledove is one of my favorite authors for sure.
Would be crazy if this was the world in 1941.
Another small tidbit her added was the Confederate plans for a Pacific coast state. I liked how they took Chihuahua and Sonora and added them to the confederacy. Actually made a lot of sense.
This post was edited on 5/10/16 at 4:46 pm
Posted on 5/10/16 at 7:04 pm to fr33manator
Just started listening to Blueprint Armageddon bc of this thread. So far, it's been very interesting! Thanks!
Posted on 5/10/16 at 7:29 pm to crazycubes
quote:
I wonder what status the USA would have had today if Germany had prevailed.
If the Krauts would a won they'd a had it made.
Posted on 5/10/16 at 7:35 pm to fr33manator
This always works out Germany 30% and Russia 70 % in the board game "Russian Winter".
I seen it!
I seen it!
Posted on 5/10/16 at 8:13 pm to PawnMaster
quote:
started listening to Blueprint Armageddon bc of this thread. So far, it's been very interesting! Thanks!
I'm just over 2 hours into the first part, part and it's fantastic.
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