re: Who here is a convert to Catholicism?

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I love being Catholic. God is the greatest!

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Yes he is. I understand why someone would love being Catholic. But I often wonder how many Catholics possess any understanding of the dire implications of their doctrine, some of which is touched on in my previous post.

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Raised Catholic here Still have faith, but disagree with much of the church’s teachings. Especially the whole no sex before marriage and not living together thing. Like you are going to Marry someone you are supposed to be with forever without testing the waters first

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First off, a proper church does not change its teachings to conform to the whims of society.

Second, unless the data has changed in the last decade, marriages of those who did not live together prior and did not sleep together prior were more successful than marriages of those who did.

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The word Catholic comes from the Greek word Katholikos. Katholikos means Universal, or "according to the whole".

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Of course. Which is why I used it properly. All Christians everywhere are part of the catholic church . If you can adhere to the Appstles’ Creed then you are catholic.

Not everyone is Roman Catholic however, nor does being Roman Catholic give you exclusivity to the church of Christ or the Body of Christ.

Distinctions between visible and invisible church are also helpful here.

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I am ex-Catholic. We are United Methodist now

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So, basically you still believe in many of the exact same things the Catholic church does, including the Catholic church's core beliefs. But if calling yourself Methodist makes you feel better about yourself, go for it.

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Frequently used as an affirmation of faith in United Methodist worship services. The Nicene Creed is the historic statement of belief of the Christian faith devised by the Council of Nicaea, convened in A.D. 325 by the Emperor Constantine in the city of Nicaea, located in what is now northwest Turkey. The Creed was revised in 381 by the Council of Constantinople. The Nicene Creed set forth the key affirmations concerning the Christian faith and served as a guide in combating heretical or false teaching. Following the Apostles' Creed, it is the second oldest creed of the Christian faith. Source: A Dictionary for United Methodists, Alan K. Waltz, Copyright 1991, Abingdon Press. Used by permission.

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son
is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic* and apostolic church.
We acknowledge one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

*universal

The United Methodist Hymnal 880.

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www.umc.org



Whenever you're ready to receive Jesus's body and blood again, you're more than welcome to come back.

Yes you do have many misunderstandings- Catholics do not have to ‘earn’ heaven by doing - you must realize you are wrong with that.

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches. We are saved by Jesus’ death on the Cross and His Mercy. It’s part of our mission to impart and show this mercy to our brothers and sisters.

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Catholics do not have to ‘earn’ heaven by doing

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In part, they do. And if in part, then what is grace? Paul addresses all such questions in Romans and Galatians.

Tell me that I'm wrong regarding Catholic teaching.
You must cooperate with God's grace for the entirety of your life by maintaing the sacraments and remaining in a state of grace.

And if you don't, you die outside of grace.

What part of that is not earning?

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We are saved by Jesus’ death on the Cross and His Mercy.

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Yes, as long as you also follow that flow chart above.

But Protestants posit that we are saved by God's grace and Jesus's atonement ALONE. There is nothing added. Even our faith is a gift of grace, and because of what God has given us, we live a life of thankfulness to Him.

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Paul did address this in Romans and Galatians. He said that a man is justified by faith. When Luther translated the letter to the Romans to German, he added the word alone, which doesn't appear in the original Greek text. In the original text, the phrase "faith alone" only appears once. In James 2:24, where the apostle denies that justification comes from faith alone.

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Good catholic answers reply. So you're on record saying that the basis of our justification is faith plus works? (which means to say earned)

You also might notice that I never said faith alone. I said God's grace and Christ's atonement alone.

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The simple answer is that we are saved by Grace.

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Exactly. Now tell me, since when can grace be earned? It is totally unmerited by definition.

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However, it's not enough to make a one-time proclamation and that be the end of it.

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This is where our understanding of the doctrine of justification differs. What is the basis of our being perfected?

No, our repentance and faithfulness can never be enough. Not a one time profession of faith nor an hourly confession and repentance for the rest of our lives. And therein lies the Catholic problem.

We simply cannot be made perfect unless Christ has made us perfect and God declares us rigteous based on that one time work (this is regeneration/conversion/justification). See Eph. 2:4 and Titus 3:5-7. That's why it all must be based on belief.

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Those who did good works inherited the Kingdom of God. Those who did not were separated from the flock and sent away into eternal punishment.

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Look at verse 46:
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
You're gonna tell me that we can achieve such a righteousness. Even in light of Is. 64:6?
"All of us have become like one who is unclean,and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags"

The only thing Jesus is saying there is that good words are evidence of true faith. Not that the works have saved us. The Biblical context is overwhelming.

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There isn't a single one that supports the Protestant definition of salvation until Luther adds that word "alone" to his translation 1600ish years after the crucifixion and resurrection.

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"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4:3-5

Rom. 4:8 Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. It's all about what God sees when he judges us. If he sees anything but Christ based on our belief in him, then we're not good enough. That's why Luther said that faith alone can save. Works are evidence of true faith, but they aren't the basis for righteousness. Only the work of Christ transferred to us, is.

Have the downvoters ever actually read Romans?!

and here's the whole point--a peace that no consistent Catholic can ever know (see Luther as a monk).

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith[b] [i]into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Access to the Father by faith in Christ?! Yes.
What about works? "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due."

and folks, what are we due? What do we deserve? You know the answer...

So thank God literally that God does not judge us based on any works, but on our belief in the work of Christ.

Without that, we can have no peace.

By the way, I appreciate the civil nature of our discussion. I've not had many pleasant or civilized "debates" with Protestants since becoming Catholic. It usually goes south in a hurry.