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re: where will we get the juice for all these EVs?
Posted on 6/14/21 at 9:07 pm to EA6B
Posted on 6/14/21 at 9:07 pm to EA6B
quote:1. I see you're still changing the parameters of the discussion, why? Stick to the discussion, it's obvious why you changed it
Unlikely, for 2021 there are only 986 Tesla supercharger stations in the US, the ICE driver has 115,000 gas stations to choose from. Those two numbers will never converge leaving the Tesla driver following a rabbit trail between charger stations.
2. The Tesla will send you a notification and tell you when you're about to not have enough range to make it to the next super charger, so that problem would have already been solved.
So again, I've debunked the discussion you want to do, now get back to the actual discussion, you're already stuck in the traffic jam...
1
Posted on 6/14/21 at 9:42 pm to shel311
quote:
So again, I've debunked the discussion you want to do, now get back to the actual discussion, you're already stuck in the traffic jam...
That’s the entire problem, why would I want a vehicle that has to be routed to charging stations that may not be on my chosen route wasting my time, instead of a vehicle that can be refueled off almost every freeway exit, and major intersection in America?
Posted on 6/14/21 at 10:40 pm to EA6B
quote:You obviously don't want one. Plenty others do, and manage to go about their lives just fine, saving $1-2k/year in fuel costs and saving 5-10 hours/year pumping gas by simply plugging in at home 99% of days.
That’s the entire problem, why would I want a vehicle that has to be routed to charging stations that may not be on my chosen route wasting my time, instead of a vehicle that can be refueled off almost every freeway exit, and major intersection in America?
But even with only 1k supercharger stations so far, it is almost certain that on any trip where range would be a problem you will pass at least 1 of them. Nobody is taking 500 mile road trips on the back roads. And if you are then you aren't concerned with how long it takes, anyway.
And in addition to the superchargers, there are nearly 5k "destination chargers" (and growing, of course) which are mostly at hotels and restaurants, and most provide free charging in exchange for your patronage. Stop to eat for an hour, get about 30 miles worth of charge for free. Arrive at your hotel after your arduous trip that took a whole extra hour, and get free "fuel" for the length of your stay.
We get it, the ubiquity of gas stations is hard to overcome. But there are definitely a lot of benefits to EVs.
Posted on 6/14/21 at 11:55 pm to SantaFe
How will people who live in cities and park on the street charge?
Posted on 6/14/21 at 11:58 pm to Darth_Vader
Obviously Texas won't have the power capacity but I suspect we can figure out how to build power plants if demand is there. It's not exactly the Manhattan project.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 12:32 am to Darth_Vader
Just wanted to drop in and remind everyone that anthropogenic climate change is not a thing, and co2 emissions are not harmful. This is all insanity.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 12:52 am to JabarkusRussell
quote:Many employers offer free charging. Also wireless EV charging is a reality, so some might wait for that to go mainstream as costs come down.
How will people who live in cities and park on the street charge?
Posted on 6/15/21 at 12:55 am to Korkstand
quote:
Also wireless EV charging is a reality,
No it isn't, certainly nothing even close to practical unless you are fine with your EV taking a solid week to charge.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 1:01 am to Korkstand
quote:
A typical Tesla discharges at 20kw just maintaining highway speed, and at more than 10X that rate surging under acceleration. How are you defining "capable"?
No shite, with large conductors between battery and motors, a cooling system, and no need to convert DC to AC. All things absent when trying to channel that much current into a residential panel.
quote:
You can make up a number like 50% conversion loss, and it will still be far cheaper to run your home for a day on EV power than to burn natural gas. How are you defining "economical"?
The total cost. Buying the car and investing thousands more into rigging up something that would allow you to backfeed a house with it with a capacity approaching a modest generator. Your problem is you don't have the technical education to understand the numbers you are tossing out.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 1:10 am to ForeverEllisHugh
quote:
Just wanted to drop in and remind everyone that anthropogenic climate change is not a thing, and co2 emissions are not harmful.
Arguendo this is a fact.
quote:
This is all insanity.
Far from it, moving to EVs or at least away from ICE vehicles is the most logical big picture move.
Fossil fuels are a finite resource. Fossil fuels are used to make lots of things we use daily that are important to our way of life that there is no reasonable alternative for at this time.
EVs beat ICE vehicles in almost every metric today. The major issues are price on the low end, range, recharging time and charging infrastructure. All of them are progressing nicely in line with demand.
Electricity can be completely weaned off fossil fuels for production with current technology.
If you strip politics, nostalgia and even ecology from the argument and just look at it from 50,000 feet like a SimCity game it is pretty clear moving transportation to EVs or at least away from fossil fuels is the most logical move for the long haul.
Total adoption can not happen tomorrow, nor next year but saving fossil fuels for things there are no alternatives for is just common sense. Conservation of the finite resources for the uses for which there is no viable alternative is the type of common-sense approach people with any level of wisdom do every day in their lives.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 1:23 am to Clames
quote:
Buying the car and investing thousands more into rigging up something that would allow you to backfeed a house with it with a capacity approaching a modest generator.
This would be a better argument if Tesla hadn't already included V2G technology in their cars and chargers.
A single EV isn't going to run a house with three 5 ton AC units but for the 90+% of people without backup generators, it is a nice perk for the occasional outage.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 1:26 am to Clames
quote:Yes it is.
No it isn't
quote:There are several companies with level 2 wireless chargers, which means several kw. The emerging wireless standard is 11kw. Overnight empty to full charge, just like plugging in. 90+% grid to battery efficiency. Reverse flow battery to grid also works wirelessly. It has also been demonstrated that a wireless charging road can charge a moving vehicle at 45kw.
certainly nothing even close to practical unless you are fine with your EV taking a solid week to charge.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 1:34 am to Korkstand
quote:
I'm well aware how big a role humidity plays, no formal thermodynamics education required.
You aren't even close, your room temp IQ on the topic doesn't allow it.
quote:
However I would love if you would show your work regarding humidity encroachment in a typical home vs a Tesla cabin, and the math related to AC efficiency. So far all you've done is spout nonsense about how smart you think you are, and how you know better than the people who have actually tested the issue, and provided absolutely zero evidence to refute the results that others have found.
I don't need to show you anything child, if you can't figure out the relatively simple math involved and apply basic physical properties involving enthalpy and phase change for water. Basic concepts used to debunk things like solar roadways and self-filling water bottles.
quote:
Uh yeah I seriously need an explanation of why it seems impossible and unsafe to you to power a house for 2 to 3 days when the equipment is clearly capable of pushing that amount of power into the vehicle 5 times faster than that.
Because most homes simply don't have the wiring and you are clueless on what it takes to setup something that would have to deliver nearly 150 amps from an EV to match an 18kW standby generator. 5 times faster than what now? You don't know what the frick you are babbling about.
quote:
FYI people already use home battery packs that are only 1/5th the size of the ones in vehicle as backup power.
To do what? Run a fridge and a few lights? They aren't running much for very long.
quote:
It's actually closer to 10% total loss round trip after both conversions, AC to DC and back again. But I'll give you 20%
This is flat bullshite. Residential level 2 chargers hover around 80 - 85% in actual use, that's one way. It's even worse going from DC to AC as it's much harder to produce a clean 60Hz sine wave than to flatten one.
quote:
Also, you have been going on about how power hungry car AC is, roughly the same as a home's central AC correct?
Average automotive AC system is about 40,000 BTU/h which is a bit more than 3 tons for a residential system. At about 1000 sqft per ton when sizing residential AC systems, I don't think you really understand how much power is being used here.
quote:
Clearly the car is able to run its own AC and drive itself down the highway. It can run 10 air conditioners, but now you think it "certainly" can't even run 1 home's air conditioner? You're a joke.
10 air conditioners he says? You think a Tesla is running a 30-ton chiller to cool an office building now? You are fricking clown shoes kid...
You are completely clueless, take your joke arse back to grade school and pick up a book this time. This post was edited on 6/15/21 at 1:50 am
Posted on 6/15/21 at 1:42 am to Darth_Vader
Booty sweat?
Posted on 6/15/21 at 1:48 am to Clames
quote:And yet, it still works.
No shite, with large conductors between battery and motors, a cooling system, and no need to convert DC to AC. All things absent when trying to channel that much current into a residential panel.
quote:If you already want an EV for the inherent advantages, and you already want the upgraded home charger for the inherent advantages, the additional cost to allow backfeed is minimal.
The total cost. Buying the car and investing thousands more into rigging up something that would allow you to backfeed a house with it with a capacity approaching a modest generator.
quote:Your problem is you think you know everything, but you don't seem to know shite.
Your problem is you don't have the technical education to understand the numbers you are tossing out.
You argue that running the AC draws too much power. I said it's about 2kw, you say it's much higher. I link to a direct measurement, you don't believe it. There are countless Tesla/Volt/etc owners who all say that running the AC drops their range by about 10%. Well, 10% of 75kwh is 7.5kwh. And let's cut a Model 3 LR range down from 350 to 300 to make it more favorable for you, then take the 10% off that and call it 270 with the AC running. At 60mph that's 4.5 hours of runtime, and 7.5kwh/4.5hrs is 1.7kw average consumption by the AC. How about that, everyone's real world experience aligns with the direct measurement, which aligns with what I fricking said. But you argue.
You apparently think an EV battery couldn't possibly power a house. Well maybe you should go tell Tesla, and Generac, and LG, and fricking etc. to go collect all the battery packs that are already installed and powering houses as we speak, because Clames here says that shite just ain't possible. And then go tell Ford's engineering team to shut it down, because even though the Lightning's pack has several times more capacity than the home units out there, and even though the charger is able to charge the battery as fast as the home units out there, they should not go that extra 10% and make it backfeed like the home units that do the exact same thing. Because Clames here says that shite ain't possible.
My god you're a fricking joke.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 1:52 am to EA6B
quote:
Unlikely, for 2021 there are only 986 Tesla supercharger stations in the US, the ICE driver has 115,000 gas stations to choose from. Those two numbers will never converge leaving the Tesla driver following a rabbit trail between charger stations.
There is more than just Tesla producing charging stations. Demand for them is there and technology by more universal adapter sources are catching up and even meeting supercharger speeds. Major utilities are partnering up to install them with companies building these as needed. It’s not gonna happen overnight. It’s coming, it’s easy to see ice will have a sharp decline over the next few decades is my opinion.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 2:04 am to Korkstand
quote:
And yet, it still works.
Yes, in a vehicle designed for it. That's nothing like plugging it into a house though and expecting to get the same output.
quote:
If you already want an EV for the inherent advantages, and you already want the upgraded home charger for the inherent advantages, the additional cost to allow backfeed is minimal.
No it isn't minimal you clod. A level 2 residential charger is about the equivalent of running a plug for a clothes dryer, a 40A to 50A circuit. We are talking 3 times that current capacity.
quote:
You apparently think an EV battery couldn't possibly power a house.
Didn't say that at all you dishonest shite. I said it's expensive and far more involved than you understand. Of course you are just a simpleton whose never actually worked on residential electrical issue more complicated than flipping a breaker so I don't expect you to know anything about proper conductor sizing and what's involved with powering a house. You just grin in imbecilic placidity as long as you can flip a switch and the lights work.
I hope you seriously do try to run your house with an EV, you would do the world a favor as another statistic for an electrical house fire.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 2:19 am to Clames
quote:
No it isn't minimal you clod. A level 2 residential charger is about the equivalent of running a plug for a clothes dryer, a 40A to 50A circuit. We are talking 3 times that current capacity.
I don’t know a lot about V2H or what Tesla’s version of it that they are working on, but the Denso one I know of is like just below 6kW. So yeah, you aren’t going to be running the whole house on it, just emergency power.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 2:28 am to Obtuse1
quote:
Fossil fuels are a finite resource
Maybe in the broadest sense, but that end is nowhere in sight and new exploration/extraction technologies are finding more and more we didn’t even know existed.
Posted on 6/15/21 at 2:31 am to Clames
quote:You, sir, are arguing that things that exist simply aren't possible.
You aren't even close, your room temp IQ on the topic doesn't allow it.
quote:You need to show somebody something other than your arse.
I don't need to show you anything child
quote:So I take it you don't actually know how hard it is to drop humidity from a Tesla cabin vs a typical home?
if you can't figure out the relatively simple math involved and apply basic physical properties involving enthalpy and phase change for water.
quote:An unsolvable problem!
Because most homes simply don't have the wiring
quote:I have been involved with the installation of numerous generators, from the 22kw Generac attached to my house up to a 150kw unit that powers half a fab shop, and the 250kw unit that powers the other half. I've configured automatic transfer switches. I may not know everything like you, but I know a bit.
and you are clueless on what it takes to setup something that would have to deliver nearly 150 amps from an EV to match an 18kW standby generator.
quote:Keep moving those goalposts. Oh and powerwalls are stackable, so you can multiply the output to whatever you need.
To do what? Run a fridge and a few lights? They aren't running much for very long.
quote:Whatever you say bro. Clames know physics and thermodynamics. Clames know current state of technology. Clames know all.
This is flat bullshite. Residential level 2 chargers hover around 80 - 85% in actual use, that's one way. It's even worse going from DC to AC as it's much harder to produce a clean 60Hz sine wave than to flatten one.
quote:No I understand, it's about 2kw on average. 40k btu/h is about 12kw, which might be in the realm of the initial draw for a few minutes, but maintaining set temp in a car uses much less. Specifically, in a Tesla, that's about 2kw. Edit: late night sleep-deprived error correction. Forgot about COP for the AC, so if it's 2-3 that puts us right at that 5kw instead of 12kw, right around what that guy measured his Tesla AC drawing after a heat soak.
Average automotive AC system is about 40,000 BTU/h which is a bit more than 3 tons for a residential system. At about 1000 sqft per ton when sizing residential AC systems, I don't think you really understand how much power is being used here.
quote:10 of its own air conditioners, probably. A Tesla pack can charge/discharge at 3-4C or higher. Obviously not recommended for long periods, but regardless it will put out several hundred kW for some time.
10 air conditioners he says? You think a Tesla is running a 30-ton chiller to cool an office building now?
quote:
You are fricking clown shoes kid... You are completely clueless, take your joke arse back to grade school and pick up a book this time.
This post was edited on 6/15/21 at 3:26 am
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