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re: What good reason is there to believe in God?
Posted on 3/18/25 at 7:44 am to Jim Rockford
Posted on 3/18/25 at 7:44 am to Jim Rockford
It blows my mind, these long post that justify the Christian scenario. In the same breath say god gave us free will, and we are born sinners, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
I didn’t even decide to be here!
It’s not near as much of a problem if universalism is true, and God gets what he is said to want.
I didn’t even decide to be here!
It’s not near as much of a problem if universalism is true, and God gets what he is said to want.
0
Posted on 3/18/25 at 7:50 am to Dawgfanman
quote:
That’s not the point. The point is that you have no hope of earning your way into heaven, that it’s only by grace and the sacrifice of Jesus that you have any hope at all.
I just don't think God would give some people 0 access to the word of Jesus and then not allow them into heaven because of that.
If Jews get a pass without believing in Jesus then I don't see why anyone else wouldn't.
And I'm sure the "They are God's chosen people" thing is coming.... in that case, why not just convert to Judaism? Jewish people don't evangelize because they believe if you live a good life you go to heaven. So if they believe that AND are God's chosen people.......
Posted on 3/18/25 at 7:51 am to TX Tiger
quote:
Why would anyone worship a God that played such games with our lives?
I see it as more of a system than a game, but I get that perspective. There isn't a good answer for the cancer question, thats just mine
Posted on 3/18/25 at 8:09 am to VolSquatch
quote:I guess I just don’t understand the system. What’s the point of giving us free will if the goal is to get to heaven?
Why would anyone worship a God that played such games with our lives?
I see it as more of a system than a game, but I get that perspective. There isn't a good answer for the cancer question, thats just mine
Why wouldn’t He make us all good so that all of us get to heaven? Doesn’t he want us to get to heaven? If not, why not? Is there an overcrowding problem in heaven?
What’s the point of making us earn our way when He has the ability to create us in such a way that we all go.
What kind of game is he playing here? Is He bored and this is His entertainment? Don’t they have cable in heaven?
Posted on 3/18/25 at 8:13 am to VolSquatch
quote:Here's just another angle of the ever complex topic of salvation:
But if the whole point is to see if you live a good life so you can get into heaven it makes more sense to let people actually make choices and be faced with organic situations.
The whole point is enjoyment. Not fleeting pleasure, like the hedonists, but enjoyment of life. The people who enjoy life the most are those who possess Christian character as described in the New Testament. And this life is just the start...
Posted on 3/18/25 at 8:19 am to TX Tiger
quote:Could you imagine how hellish life would be if there were no goals, challenges, or adventures?
What’s the point of making us earn our way when He has the ability to create us in such a way that we all go.
Again, we aren't earning per say but we damn well are sacraficing by joining Christ in his ultimate sacrifice. Yes, there is "work" involved, but it's only possible because of the work of Christ.
And it isn't your "work" that gets you in, but his.
We merely participate in the journey. It's a good life.
Posted on 3/18/25 at 8:30 am to bayoubengals88
quote:You’re kidding right? Can you imagine the advancements in every facet of life if we all worked together for its betterment?
What’s the point of making us earn our way when He has the ability to create us in such a way that we all go.
Could you imagine how hellish life would be if there were no goals, challenges, or adventures?
quote:What’s the point? Why are we forced to “sacrifice”? Shouldn’t God want all of us to join Him? If not, why not? Why has He chosen this particular path to take for us? It seems like an awfully cruel game He’s playing.
Again, we aren't earning per say but we damn well are sacraficing by joining Christ in his ultimate sacrifice
P.S.: How can you be sure that where we are now isn’t “hell.”
This post was edited on 3/18/25 at 8:34 am
Posted on 3/18/25 at 8:38 am to TX Tiger
quote:
What’s the point of giving us free will if the goal is to get to heaven?
In that case why not just start us out in heaven to begin with?
It isn't a coincidence that a "good" life lived also corresponds with things that advance humanity as a species/civilization. The Bible and Old Testament biblical law is filled with things that aren't just good for the individual, but for the community as a whole to survive and thrive. A small village can be entirely destroyed because one guy decides he likes another guy's wife. Nowadays the individual behavior doesn't have near as much impact on the "group" as a whole, so this point isn't nearly as noticeable or impactful now so we focus on the individual.
Given all that, my thought/theory is that God is largely if not entirely hands off, which requires free will. But he wants humanity, since it is in his image, to thrive. So the Bible ultimately gives us the tools for that. The New Testament and Jesus' sacrifice ultimately foresaw the point where societies became so large that we needed to focus on the individual, so there you have the focus on the afterlife we have. Judaism on the other hand very much still has the communal aspect and that seemingly won't ever go away, so you are able to focus more on the communal aspect.
To answer the other questions and kind of TLDR this, essentially God is more concerned with how we act on earth and heaven is the reward. So Christians and humans generally focus on the reward whereas God is focused on the process in getting it.
Posted on 3/18/25 at 8:44 am to TX Tiger
I said this:
We are in total agreement as they are not mutually exclusive at all.
Working together for "its" betterment (society?) is the very definition of sacrifice and it is certainly an adventure. A worthy goal indeed.
So what's cruel? Being hellbent on your own selfish desires and liking it? Seeking short term pleasure and thinking you like it? God is gonna let you do that all day long. At some point, every man has to make the choice to get his head out of his cereal, look up to heaven and say "God help me follow you. I want a better life. Your ways that are clearly prescribed in Scripture are better than mine."
That's no game man. That's the eternal creator of order itself allowing you to decide to order your life according to his ways.
quote:You said this:
Could you imagine how hellish life would be if there were no goals, challenges, or adventures?
quote:
Can you imagine the advancements in every facet of life if we all worked together for its betterment?
We are in total agreement as they are not mutually exclusive at all.
Working together for "its" betterment (society?) is the very definition of sacrifice and it is certainly an adventure. A worthy goal indeed.
quote:Sacrificing is 100% voluntary. That's why so few people do it.
Why are we forced to “sacrifice”?
quote:Of course he does: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Shouldn’t God want all of us to join Him?
So what's cruel? Being hellbent on your own selfish desires and liking it? Seeking short term pleasure and thinking you like it? God is gonna let you do that all day long. At some point, every man has to make the choice to get his head out of his cereal, look up to heaven and say "God help me follow you. I want a better life. Your ways that are clearly prescribed in Scripture are better than mine."
That's no game man. That's the eternal creator of order itself allowing you to decide to order your life according to his ways.
This post was edited on 3/18/25 at 8:45 am
Posted on 3/18/25 at 8:53 am to bayoubengals88
quote:Do you not realize what you're implicitly asserting when you ask a question like this?
Can you imagine the advancements in every facet of life if we all worked together for its betterment?
1. Betterment - You're assuming that "better" exists.
2. Working together - You're demonstrating that we all need to agree on what "better" is.
3. You're also assuming that working together toward betterment is a worthy goal, therefore implying that telos is real, that is an ultimateaim. I'd love to know how one justifies teleology apart from God. How could we agree on any ultimates in a world devoid of meaning? Do we just declare them by fiat? Oh wait. That's literally the defition of God...
Posted on 3/18/25 at 8:59 am to Stinger_1066
quote:You're further making my point. I was being generous with 500 since there are multiple studies on how many planets we know of that meet the criteria for supporting life. My point was none of the planets in our solar system show signs of life and no one really knows what creates life. The evidence definitely leans more to there is no other intelligent life than there's tons of life since there's so many planets. The number of planets doesn't increase likelihood unless we know how life is created.
an estimated 40 billion planets that might support life in our Milky Way galaxy.
Posted on 3/18/25 at 9:07 am to TX Tiger
quote:The highest form of love ("agape") is sacrificial love. We all fail time and time again. The creator of the universe became man and sacrificed himself for us even when we didn't deserve it. You can't truly love someone if you aren't freely choosing to do so. God simply wants us to choose him over ourselves. Hell is not someone we are put. It is a place we choose to go ourselves to live separate from God.
What’s the point? Why are we forced to “sacrifice”? Shouldn’t God want all of us to join Him? If not, why not? Why has He chosen this particular path to take for us? It seems like an awfully cruel game He’s playing.
Posted on 3/18/25 at 9:30 am to northshorebamaman
quote:
Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole vs. Christianity?
As I stated in the rest of my post that you selectively chose not to quote (fitting for an evolutionist), evolution does not contradict Christianity in any way. There is no "vs" argument.
Posted on 3/18/25 at 9:31 am to armytiger96
quote:
Just curious when you say "which God" are you referring to Yahweh, God, or Allah? Or are you referring to other spiritual beings from Buddism, Hindu, etc? God, Yahweh, and Allah are all the same God. Christianity and Muslim are spinoffs of Judaism so all three believe and worship the same God.
I guess all of the above, really. My OP was really just referring to tackling one question at a time. First, is it more reasonable to assume existence made itself or there was some type of catalyst that made it all happen? Once we establish an answer to that, the next question becomes one of which belief system is correct.
Posted on 3/18/25 at 9:31 am to Stinger_1066
quote:
You think the world we live in is "fine tuned"?
Yes, I think existence is fine tuned.
Posted on 3/18/25 at 9:33 am to StrongOffer
quote:Exactly. And he wants it for us more than he wants it for him. Again, Jerusalem, Jersusalem...how how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing. Here we see a motherly side of Jesus as he uses the allegory of hens and chicks.
God simply wants us to choose him over ourselves. Hell is not someone we are put. It is a place we choose to go ourselves to live separate from God.
Sounds pretty loving to me. Far from a cruel game.
Posted on 3/18/25 at 9:34 am to Stinger_1066
That we will never know
Posted on 3/18/25 at 9:35 am to northshorebamaman
quote:
Seems like a "bat signal" for anyone interested in the topic, yourself included. Not sure where the derision for dissenting opinions comes from. They are interested in the subject for the same reason you are, and, the fact they currently don't share the same conclusion as you do, seems like a shallow reason to discount them as attention whores or whatever you're alluding to, when not only did you respond, but you responded before any of them did, and even preemptively called them out for participating in a discussion that you entered before any of them.
My OP was not meant to be a serious commentary but rather an off the cuff kind of joke. I will own that I could've been more clear I guess. When I said the "bat signal" comment, it wasn't in reference to people with genuine yet differing opinions than mine on the subject of religion. It was referring to the handful of 4 to 5 of posters who drop into religious threads just to troll everyone.
Like I said, it was meant to be something of a joke.
Posted on 3/18/25 at 9:36 am to UFFan
Because there is no way all this came from nothing.
Posted on 3/18/25 at 9:48 am to TX Tiger
quote:
I guess I just don’t understand the system. What’s the point of giving us free will if the goal is to get to heaven?
According to Christian doctrine, the "goal" is not to get to heaven. The goal is to be reconciled to God and to have a relationship with him. Heaven is just a bonus.
quote:
Why wouldn’t He make us all good so that all of us get to heaven? Doesn’t he want us to get to heaven? If not, why not? Is there an overcrowding problem in heaven?
Have you ever hung out with someone who really didn't wanna be there? It's not fun for any of the parties involved. He doesn't want to force himself on us but, unfortunately, with that freedom comes the ability to not choose him. God's not going to make you spend time with him if you don't want to.
quote:
What’s the point of making us earn our way when He has the ability to create us in such a way that we all go.
Again, according to Christian doctrine, we do not "earn" our way to him. It's not about our good deeds that force God's hand into saving us. If we could earn our way, we wouldn't need a savior.
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