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Message
re: Six minutes over the Japanese fleet
Posted on 6/4/15 at 12:55 pm to Darth_Vader
Posted on 6/4/15 at 12:55 pm to Darth_Vader
He mud checked you hard.
0
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:02 pm to Darth_Vader
I read a book review of Shattered Sword (always gives a nice synopsis).
Basically, the conclusion is the Battle of Midway was less about the Americans than a systemic failure of structure and doctrine on the part of the Imperial Japanese Navy. It also concludes that the torpedo bombers had nothing to do with the IJN's CAP.
The book is written by American military historians utilizing Japanese sources (including interviews with survivors).
Basically, the conclusion is the Battle of Midway was less about the Americans than a systemic failure of structure and doctrine on the part of the Imperial Japanese Navy. It also concludes that the torpedo bombers had nothing to do with the IJN's CAP.
The book is written by American military historians utilizing Japanese sources (including interviews with survivors).
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:15 pm to Darth_Vader
Wonder if he ever wrote a book about it.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:18 pm to udtiger
quote:
I read a book review of Shattered Sword (always gives a nice synopsis).
Basically, the conclusion is the Battle of Midway was less about the Americans than a systemic failure of structure and doctrine on the part of the Imperial Japanese Navy. It also concludes that the torpedo bombers had nothing to do with the IJN's CAP.
The book is written by American military historians utilizing Japanese sources (including interviews with survivors).
I'd be interested in reading it. But it stating that the torpedo bombers not having anything to do with the Japanese CAP goes against everything that's been written about the battle since it happened. It was standard operating procedure for both the Japanese and American fleets to have a standing high altitude cap over the fleet, especially the carriers, at all times. When the American attack came in it was piecemeal in that the torpedo bombers arrived first, coming in low, just above the deck, to launch their torpedoes. The Japanese CAP reacted to this by leaving their high altitude station and coming down to just above sea level to wipe out the American torpedo bombers. Right after this, and before the Zeros had time to regain altitude, the dive bombers showed up and launched their attacks unmolested by the Japanese CAP. It's a well established fact that the Dauntless dive bombers in use at that time were virtually sitting ducks when it came to the Zero. Had those Zeros still been at their normal altitude when the dive bombers showed up, there's little doubt they would at least broke up the attack if not totally annihilated the dive bombers in the same manner they did with the Devastators. Taking all that into account, how can they contend that the torpedo bombers drawing down the Japanese CAP and clearing the way for the high altitude dive bombers did not play a pivotal role then?
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:21 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I'd be interested in reading it. But it stating that the torpedo bombers not having anything to do with the Japanese CAP goes against everything that's been written about the battle since it happened. It was standard operating procedure for both the Japanese and American fleets to have a standing high altitude cap over the fleet, especially the carriers, at all times. When the American attack came in it was piecemeal in that the torpedo bombers arrived first, coming in low, just above the deck, to launch their torpedoes. The Japanese CAP reacted to this by leaving their high altitude station and coming down to just above sea level to wipe out the American torpedo bombers. Right after this, and before the Zeros had time to regain altitude, the dive bombers showed up and launched their attacks unmolested by the Japanese CAP. It's a well established fact that the Dauntless dive bombers in use at that time were virtually sitting ducks when it came to the Zero. Had those Zeros still been at their normal altitude when the dive bombers showed up, there's little doubt they would at least broke up the attack if not totally annihilated the dive bombers in the same manner they did with the Devastators. Taking all that into account, how can they contend that the torpedo bombers drawing down the Japanese CAP and clearing the way for the high altitude dive bombers did not play a pivotal role then?
I freely admit I don't know enough about the topic to say one way or the other. I was only noting what the review said ( here it is ):
quote:
They conclude with a brief recounting and dismissal of some of the myths surrounding Midway, at least in the English-language history. The doomed American torpedo pilots did not bring the Japanese combat air patrol Zeros down, sparing the dive-bombers that would deliver the fatal blows: faulty Japanese pilot discipline, and the Kido Butai's air search system were instead at fault.
The review notes this book corrects numerous "errors" about the history of the battle by BOTH Japanese and American military historians.
This post was edited on 6/4/15 at 1:22 pm
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:24 pm to prplhze2000
quote:
Wonder if he ever wrote a book about it.
I wasn't sure so I looked it up. Appears that he did...
LINK
Accrding to his Wiki page, he as also a consultant on the 1970's movie "Midway".
I remember loving this movie as a kid.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:31 pm to udtiger
quote:
They conclude with a brief recounting and dismissal of some of the myths surrounding Midway, at least in the English-language history. The doomed American torpedo pilots did not bring the Japanese combat air patrol Zeros down, sparing the dive-bombers that would deliver the fatal blows: faulty Japanese pilot discipline, and the Kido Butai's air search system were instead at fault.
I see what they're saying here. But to me this smacks of history revisionism. The fact still stands that the Japanese CAP was not on it's normal station because of the attacks of the low level American torpedo bombers. Had those torpedo bombers not appeared where they did and when they did, the Japanese CAP would have never been down at low altitude. Instead they would have been up at high altitude and perfect position to intercept and destroy the American dive bomber formations long before they came close to the carriers.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:37 pm to Darth_Vader
Hey piggy boy!
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:40 pm to Jim Rockford
A recently (2002) issued film from the National Archives. Each pilot and gunner filmed individually just prior to take-off.
Where do we find such men?
quote:
"Admiral Nimitz instructed John Ford to film the battle. Ford, then a Lt. Commander in the OSS, was severely injured during the attack while filming on the island. One of his crews, aboard the Hornet, was making a documentary film featuring VT-8. This was their film as it was edited and presented to the families. The film was never released to the public for obvious reasons."
Where do we find such men?
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:44 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I see what they're saying here. But to me this smacks of history revisionism. The fact still stands that the Japanese CAP was not on it's normal station because of the attacks of the low level American torpedo bombers. Had those torpedo bombers not appeared where they did and when they did, the Japanese CAP would have never been down at low altitude. Instead they would have been up at high altitude and perfect position to intercept and destroy the American dive bomber formations long before they came close to the carriers.
Apparently there may be new "facts". Often times history is recorded incorrectly and then repeated over and over again. That doesn't make it a fact.
It would be interesting to read that book. I read the Introduction and the author takes on some of the so-called facts. He is writing his book based on Japanese records and other information available.
It's part of the process. Sometimes the "facts" change.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:45 pm to Coeur du Tigre
Cool, but very blurry video. Thanks for posting that.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:46 pm to Coeur du Tigre
We don't find such men now. Too much pc going around to get that jacked up. Certainly since we have become a socialist country.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:51 pm to ginms
quote:
We don't find such men now. Too much pc going around to get that jacked up. Certainly since we have become a socialist country.
Don't kid yourself. The history of this country is that of a society that always finds good men when they are needed most. That will never change.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 1:53 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I wasn't sure so I looked it up. Appears that he did...
A friend of mine met him at a book signing in Shreveport a number of years ago. It wasn't well publicized, or publicized at all, and he was just sitting there with a stack of books and no one around. My friend is a Navy veteran and WWII buff, so he just sat down and they visited for an hour and a half. He said it was one of the high points of his life.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 2:00 pm to ginms
quote:
We don't find such men now. Too much pc going around to get that jacked up. Certainly since we have become a socialist country
bullshite. Countless American heroes have sacrificed themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan, for their compatriots. If there was an actual threat to the US you'd have even more.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 2:02 pm to Mung
quote:
bullshite. Countless American heroes have sacrificed themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan, for their compatriots. If there was an actual threat to the US you'd have even more.
This. Circumstances make the man, not the other way around.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 2:03 pm to doubleb
quote:
Apparently there may be new "facts". Often times history is recorded incorrectly and then repeated over and over again. That doesn't make it a fact.
It would be interesting to read that book. I read the Introduction and the author takes on some of the so-called facts. He is writing his book based on Japanese records and other information available.
It's part of the process. Sometimes the "facts" change.
Understand. But to understand the role the torpedo bombers played you've got to have a bit of understanding in how aircraft at that time operated. When the Japanese fighters dived down to almost sea level to deal with the torpedo bombers they could not just quickly regain altitude to deal with the incoming dive bombers. This took time, like several minutes. And in this instance, minutes mattered.
And keep in mind, the American attacks were not only coming from one direction, some attacks came in from the northeast, others from the southwest. This was done on purpose to divide the Japanese CAP. Thus the Torpedo bombers did play a key role. If they did not show up first, had the dive bombers arrived first, the Japanese CAP would have been high and it would have been fully concentrated and fully armed (remember these aircraft only carried a limited amount of ammo). Had this happened, the Dauntless dive bombers would have been ripped to shreds.
This post was edited on 6/4/15 at 2:05 pm
Posted on 6/4/15 at 2:16 pm to Darth_Vader
The other thing to keep in mind is that the plan was for the dive bombers and torpedo bombers to go in at the same time, which would have accomplished the same goal of dividing the Japanese CAP.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 2:17 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
You are one sad, pathetic little man.
Darth, I like you but that pic is hilarious.
Posted on 6/4/15 at 2:24 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
The other thing to keep in mind is that the plan was for the dive bombers and torpedo bombers to go in at the same time, which would have accomplished the same goal of dividing the Japanese CAP.
True but working out as it did made the difference. The lack of any Japanese Zeros at high altitude meant the far more effective dive bombers (remember our torpedoes were garbage at that time) were able to get lined up and make their diving runs unhindered by any resistance.
The sad truth of the state of US torpedoes in June of 42 is that if the roles had been reversed and instead if the dive bombers it was our torpedo bombers that carried out their attacks unhindered, it's highly unlikely they would have done much, if any, substantial damage. We are very lucky that things worked out the way they did.
This post was edited on 6/4/15 at 2:25 pm
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