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Started By
Message
re: Placing blame on inanimate objects versus getting to the root of the problem
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:07 pm to ImayGoLesMiles
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:07 pm to ImayGoLesMiles
Good lord man, I know what it says. I'm not even anti-gun.
That particular argument just doesn't make sense anymore with the way our government and military has evolved.
That particular argument just doesn't make sense anymore with the way our government and military has evolved.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:23 pm to LsuNav
quote:
Mass shootings are mostly perpetrated by white males so the homogeneity of the culture has little to with it.
It's not white males who are responsible for a majority of gun homicides in this country...
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:36 pm to Chucktown_Badger
quote:
Because of the gun laws in Mexico, the cartels, the most feared and ruthless criminals in the world, need to get their guns from the U.S.
Actually they don't. If you paid attention to the footnote on that graph and did a little critical thinking, you'd know the proper context to what you've posted. The total number of firearms seized over that span was something around 400k, the firearms submitted to the ATF for tracing were those thought to have the best chance of being traced to US manufacture only made up a small fraction of that 400k. So no, the overwhelming majority of cartel firearms do not come from the US. Many of those traced to the US were actually government owned weapons diverted by corrupted Mexican police and military personnel.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:46 pm to TDcline
We now have made up diseases like fibromyalgia...
Every kid in the world has all of a sudden become ADHD in the past 25 or so years so docs can push pills when that wasn’t an issue before. We were too poor to try the ADHD route when I was a kid. If I acted like an arse, my dad beat the frick out of me with a belt and would explain to me why he did it.
We live in a soft as frick society now.
But also, I think teens largely have nothing to hope for anymore. Nothing to aspire to. Negativity dominates every possible media outlet. Kids are exposed to death and violence more than ever before. I grew up watching boy meets world and shite. Today’s kids grow up watching porn and violence and society has become desensitized to it. White kids are told they’re basically pieces of shite and should apologize for their whiteness. Boys are told they’re pieces of shite and if they compliment a girl they are basically raping them. Kids are now told that the national fricking anthem is racist somehow, but also that if they don’t have life figure out by 10 that they may need to have gender reassignment procedures. Fat, purple haired women dominate our education systems, minorities can basically do whatever the frick they want and play the race card, and we have generations growing up not knowing what the frick is going on.
I’m surprised today’s kids aren’t worse.
:bow:
Every kid in the world has all of a sudden become ADHD in the past 25 or so years so docs can push pills when that wasn’t an issue before. We were too poor to try the ADHD route when I was a kid. If I acted like an arse, my dad beat the frick out of me with a belt and would explain to me why he did it.
We live in a soft as frick society now.
But also, I think teens largely have nothing to hope for anymore. Nothing to aspire to. Negativity dominates every possible media outlet. Kids are exposed to death and violence more than ever before. I grew up watching boy meets world and shite. Today’s kids grow up watching porn and violence and society has become desensitized to it. White kids are told they’re basically pieces of shite and should apologize for their whiteness. Boys are told they’re pieces of shite and if they compliment a girl they are basically raping them. Kids are now told that the national fricking anthem is racist somehow, but also that if they don’t have life figure out by 10 that they may need to have gender reassignment procedures. Fat, purple haired women dominate our education systems, minorities can basically do whatever the frick they want and play the race card, and we have generations growing up not knowing what the frick is going on.
I’m surprised today’s kids aren’t worse.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:55 pm to NawlinsTiger9
quote:
I can tell you feel strongly about this, and I don't entirely disagree with everything you're saying - but the pro-gun people will be a lot better off if they let this particular argument die.
It no longer applies. It no longer makes sense.
If the government decided to use any amount of military force, then we are fricked. Period. It's not debatable.
I got to that part of his post and had an audible laugh at my desk.
I can just imagine Emperor Trump considering instituting military rule and not leaving office, but then reconsidering because "shite, those guys in Louisiana have guns"
Posted on 2/15/18 at 4:00 pm to Clames
quote:
Actually they don't. If you paid attention to the footnote on that graph and did a little critical thinking, you'd know the proper context to what you've posted. The total number of firearms seized over that span was something around 400k, the firearms submitted to the ATF for tracing were those thought to have the best chance of being traced to US manufacture only made up a small fraction of that 400k. So no, the overwhelming majority of cartel firearms do not come from the US. Many of those traced to the US were actually government owned weapons diverted by corrupted Mexican police and military personnel.
I think you're reading it wrong. What it's reporting is those that were seized by Mexican authorities and traced by the ATF. Period. I'm missing the part of the footnote that states "the ATF only looked into those guys that probably came from the US"
I'd bet a paycheck that the guns that the ATF did not have the opportunity or bandwidth to trace would very closely align to those percentages.
This post was edited on 2/15/18 at 4:10 pm
Posted on 2/15/18 at 4:09 pm to ImayGoLesMiles
quote:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
I don't think anyone is saying you can't have a gun or guns. That would be an outright ban, which is not being discussed. Folks are simply saying "are there certain types of guns or clips, or mods, etc that should be outlawed?" A fair question I'd say given the number of innocent people getting mowed down by nuts.
And hey, if you're such a fervent supporter of the Constitution, you should be traditional across the board and only own muskets.
ETA: I do acknowledge that a musket might be less effective against the United States Army when they show up to invade Louisiana, but I wasn't feeling too optimistic about you and your buddies chances anyway.
This post was edited on 2/15/18 at 4:17 pm
Posted on 2/15/18 at 4:58 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:
I do question why any regular person really needs an assault rifle other than to feel like a badass who owns an assault rifle.
Have you ever shot one? They're really fun.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 5:08 pm to Chucktown_Badger
No, you just have no clue what you are looking at. I remember the news articles when that info was released and they were using the same wrong context you are. Out of ALL the weapons siezed (400k), those deemed most likely to be traced in the US were sent to the ATF by the authorities. Out of those submitted, 70% were traced to US suppliers. Out of that 70%, some were weapons the US government sold to the Mexican government. So less than 20% of all the weapons siezed actually came from the US and even some of those were diverted by corrupt Mexican parties.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 5:10 pm to Mike da Tigah
Its a multi-faceted problem. Education, mental health and yes, the availability of guns, all contribute in addition to a myriad of other issues.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 5:11 pm to Chucktown_Badger
quote:
And hey, if you're such a fervent supporter of the Constitution, you should be traditional across the board and only own muskets.
Go read the unanimous US Supreme Court decision in Caetano v Massachusetts. That whole musket argument is as dumb as would be requiring quill pens for the 1st Amendment.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 5:49 pm to Clames
quote:
Go read the unanimous US Supreme Court decision in Caetano v Massachusetts. That whole musket argument is as dumb as would be requiring quill pens for the 1st Amendment.
That was more of a tongue in cheek comment than anything.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 5:56 pm to Clames
quote:
No, you just have no clue what you are looking at. I remember the news articles when that info was released and they were using the same wrong context you are. Out of ALL the weapons siezed (400k), those deemed most likely to be traced in the US were sent to the ATF by the authorities. Out of those submitted, 70% were traced to US suppliers. Out of that 70%, some were weapons the US government sold to the Mexican government. So less than 20% of all the weapons siezed actually came from the US and even some of those were diverted by corrupt Mexican parties.
Here's the full report.
LINK
Here's the methodology. Please pull out the part that supports your assertion. As I'm sure you will not find it I will await your apology.
quote:
To identify data available on the origin of firearms trafficked to Mexico that were seized and traced, we relied primarily on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) data compiled by its National Tracing Center (NTC).The data provided by NTC were obtained from ATF’s Firearms Tracing System, most of which is developed through eTrace submissions. We discussed with cognizant NTC officials the methodology used to collect these data and reviewed supporting agency documentation. Based on these discussions, we determined that NTC data were sufficiently reliable to permit an analysis of where the firearms seized in Mexico that were submitted for tracing had been manufactured and whether they had been imported into the United States before arriving in Mexico. For those firearms that were traced to a retail dealer in the United States before being trafficked to Mexico, NTC data also contained information on the states where they had originated. NTC trace data also contained information allowing identification of the types of firearms that were most commonly seized in Mexico and subsequently traced. We corroborated this information in discussions with U.S. and Mexican law enforcement officials. Since firearms seized in Mexico are not always submitted for tracing within the same year as they were seized, it was not possible for us to develop data to track trends on the types of firearms seized year to year. Similarly, we were unable to obtain quantitative data from U.S. or Mexican government sources on the users of illicit firearms in Mexico. However, there was consensus among U.S. and Mexican law enforcement officials that most illicit firearms seized in Mexico had been in the possession of organized criminal organizations linked to the drug trade. The involvement of criminal organizations with ties to drug trafficking in the trafficking of illicit firearms into Mexico was confirmed by law enforcement intelligence sources. We learned about the use of firearms parts for the assembly of firearms in Mexico through our interviews with cognizant U.S. and Mexican government and law enforcement officials and through review of ATF-provided documents. To learn more about U.S. government efforts to combat illicit sales of firearms in the United States and to stem the flow of these firearms across the Southwest border into Mexico, we interviewed cognizant officials from the Department of Justice’s (DOJ) ATF, the Department of Homeland Security’s (DHS) Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and Customs and Border Protection (CBP), and the Department of State (State) regarding their relevant efforts. We obtained data from ATF and ICE on funding for their respective efforts to address firearms trafficking to Mexico, and data from ICE on seizures of southbound firearms. To Appendix I: Scope and Methodology Appendix I: Scope and Methodology Page 36 GAO-16-223 Firearms Trafficking assess the reliability of the data, we discussed sources and the methodology use to develop the data with agency officials. We determined that the information provided to us was sufficiently reliable to describe agencies’ efforts to combat firearms trafficking. We also conducted fieldwork at U.S.-Mexico border crossings at El Paso, Texas, and San Diego, California. In these locations, we interviewed ATF, CBP, and ICE officials responsible for overseeing and implementing efforts to stem the flow of illicit firearms trafficking to Mexico and related law enforcement initiatives. We reviewed and analyzed DOJ and DHS documents relevant to U.S. government efforts and collaboration to address arms trafficking to Mexico, including funding data provided to us by ATF and ICE, the 2009 memorandum of understanding (MOU) between ICE and ATF, data from ICE on seizures of firearms destined for Mexico, data from ATF and ICE on efforts to investigate and prosecute cases involving arms trafficking to Mexico, and agency reports and assessments related to the issue. We also reviewed relevant prior GAO reports, Congressional Research Service reports and memorandums, and reports from DOJ’s Office of Inspector General related to ATF’s efforts to enforce federal firearms laws. We reviewed provisions of federal firearms laws relevant to U.S. government efforts to address firearms trafficking to Mexico, including the Gun Control Act of 1968, the National Firearms Act of 1934, and the Arms Export Control Act of 1976. We did not independently review any Mexican laws for this report. To determine how well agencies collaborated with Mexican authorities to combat illicit firearms trafficking, we conducted fieldwork in Mexico City, Guadalajara, and border locations in Ciudad Juarez and Tijuana, Mexico. In Mexico, we met with ATF, CBP, ICE, and State officials working on law enforcement issues at the U.S. embassy. We interviewed Mexican government officials engaged in efforts to combat firearms trafficking from the Attorney General’s Office (Procuraduría General de la República), the Federal Police (Policía Federal); the Ministry of Public Safety (Secretaría de Seguridad Pública); the Ministry of Defense (Secretaría de la Defensa Nacional); the Mexican National Intelligence Agency (Centro de Investigación y Seguridad Nacional, or CISEN); the Mexican Navy (Secretaría de Marina or Armada de Mexico); Customs (Servicio de Administración Tributaria); the Forensic Science Institute of Jalisco (Instituto Jalisciense de Ciencias Forenses); Attorney General Regional Offices, Federal Police, and State Police in Tijuana and Ciudad Juarez; and the State Attorney General in Guadalajara. Because our fieldwork was limited to selected locations along the Southwest border and in the Appendix I: Scope and Methodology Page 37 GAO-16-223 Firearms Trafficking interior of Mexico, our observations in these locations are illustrative but are not generalizable and may not be representative of all efforts to address the issue. To assess the extent to which the National Southwest Border Counternarcotics Strategy (Strategy) outlines U.S. goals and progress made in efforts to stem firearms trafficking to Mexico, we reviewed the 2011 and 2013 versions of the Strategy’s Weapons Chapter and the 2010 implementation guide. We also met with Office of National Drug Control Policy officials responsible for the implementation and monitoring the Strategy, as well as with ATF and ICE officials responsible for writing the Weapons Chapter and overseeing implementation and reporting on activities described within their respective agencies.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 9:45 pm to Chucktown_Badger
quote:
I'm missing the part of the footnote that states "the ATF only looked into those guys that probably came from the US"
You are missing much more than that. Links to previous reports and how they were taken out of context by low-info types like yourself.
LINK
LINK
quote:
Note: These figures reflect firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced by ATF, not all firearms seized in
Mexico.
Yes, the firearms submitted to the ATF were picked to have the best chance of being traced in the U.S. That has been the case everytime this kind of report has been generated.
quote:
As I'm sure you will not find it I will await your apology.
I'm sorry you are borderline clinically retarded.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 10:39 pm to Clames
Oh boy, where to start with this...sigh.
So you make a claim attempting to discredit a nonpartisan study, and your support for that is a partisan gun lobby website with a quote from a Republican senator who was not a part of the study but has an interest in protecting the gun industry
Classic. Get a quote from a guy who has a vested interest, get him to throw a "fact" out there (with no proof), and then ask the question about the conspiracy based on said quote. Rock solid. The fact that folks like you read this stuff and blindly eat it up is scary.
Next:
And you conclude from that:
I like turtles. How you think that the line from the study supports your assertion is, I just, I can't even. Dude, it says that the guns in the study are the ones the ATF tracked, meaning, they didn't track every gun seized in the entire country. And if the Mexicans (allegedly) only submitted US guns for tracking, why were "only" 70% of them traced back to the US? Why wasn't it 100%?
It's ok to be wrong. I'm wrong sometimes and I have no problem admitting it. Part of the problem with this country is people are tone deaf to anything that might make them reconsider a fiercely held opinion. That's unfortunate.
So you make a claim attempting to discredit a nonpartisan study, and your support for that is a partisan gun lobby website with a quote from a Republican senator who was not a part of the study but has an interest in protecting the gun industry
quote:
“Thorough gun statistics are hard to come by and tricky to interpret. The key to this data is that most of these guns can’t be traced to U.S. gun dealers. And, some of those would actually trace back to the United States because of the federal government’s own gunwalking scandal. We also have to remember that the only guns Mexico is going to submit for tracing are guns they know are from the United States, which clearly paints an incomplete picture of the firearms found in the Mexico,” Grassley said in a press release.
In other words, did Mexico officials skew the data by only submitting guns they knew or thought to be U.S.-sourced?
Classic. Get a quote from a guy who has a vested interest, get him to throw a "fact" out there (with no proof), and then ask the question about the conspiracy based on said quote. Rock solid. The fact that folks like you read this stuff and blindly eat it up is scary.
Next:
quote:
Note: These figures reflect firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced by ATF, not all firearms seized in Mexico.
And you conclude from that:
quote:
Yes, the firearms submitted to the ATF were picked to have the best chance of being traced in the U.S.
I like turtles. How you think that the line from the study supports your assertion is, I just, I can't even. Dude, it says that the guns in the study are the ones the ATF tracked, meaning, they didn't track every gun seized in the entire country. And if the Mexicans (allegedly) only submitted US guns for tracking, why were "only" 70% of them traced back to the US? Why wasn't it 100%?
It's ok to be wrong. I'm wrong sometimes and I have no problem admitting it. Part of the problem with this country is people are tone deaf to anything that might make them reconsider a fiercely held opinion. That's unfortunate.
This post was edited on 2/15/18 at 10:41 pm
Posted on 2/16/18 at 8:05 am to Chucktown_Badger
The "ban AR " folks actually think that will stop nut jobs from finding some other way to mass destruct? Two fully loaded Glocks can take out just as many people.So where do the bans stop? Gonna ban anything over three rounds? That's a lot of banning. Will make it really hard on me protecting you or your kid when a wacko comes calling.
I smh at the sheep that think laws will keep them safe. Laws only make it difficult on the Shepard dogs when the wolves show up.
I smh at the sheep that think laws will keep them safe. Laws only make it difficult on the Shepard dogs when the wolves show up.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 8:52 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
getting to the root of the problem
Bring back public hanging. Hanging by the neck is actually still a legal method of death penalty in many places.
This couples deviant behavior with a dire consequence feared by all...
Posted on 2/16/18 at 9:40 am to Mike da Tigah
It is a complex problem. It starts with mental illness.. Someone in their right mind doesn't make the decision to go into a school and start randomly shooting and killing people. But then another problem is.. How easy it is for someone with mental illness to access weapons that will allow them to kill as many people as possible.
I am all for people having guns, but I think there are things that can be done to make it a little more difficult for younger people to get their hands on certain type of weapons. And while it might not be a cure all, doing something is better than nothing. I don't think someone should be able to purchase an AR-15 at the age of 18. The human brain doesn't full develop until around the age of 25.. Teenagers do dumb shite. Many can't handle their emotions, etc. There are alot of responsible teenagers, but there are also a lot who are not. How many of you look back to when you were a teenager and regret shite you done?
Were you the same person today that you were when you were 18? Of course this doesn't help with situations we saw in Las Vegas, when a guy in his early 60s decided to do what he did...There isn't a cure all solution, there are some things that can be done, without violating the 2nd amendment.
The problem is.. When you have special interest groups donating $30 million dollars to a presidential campaign, that president will work in the best interest of a group that gave him over $30 million. Everyone wants to blame it on one problem or the other when in reality it is a little more complex than that.
Someone has to wait until they are 21 before they can buy alcohol.. But can buy an AR-15 at 18?
I am all for people having guns, but I think there are things that can be done to make it a little more difficult for younger people to get their hands on certain type of weapons. And while it might not be a cure all, doing something is better than nothing. I don't think someone should be able to purchase an AR-15 at the age of 18. The human brain doesn't full develop until around the age of 25.. Teenagers do dumb shite. Many can't handle their emotions, etc. There are alot of responsible teenagers, but there are also a lot who are not. How many of you look back to when you were a teenager and regret shite you done?
Were you the same person today that you were when you were 18? Of course this doesn't help with situations we saw in Las Vegas, when a guy in his early 60s decided to do what he did...There isn't a cure all solution, there are some things that can be done, without violating the 2nd amendment.
The problem is.. When you have special interest groups donating $30 million dollars to a presidential campaign, that president will work in the best interest of a group that gave him over $30 million. Everyone wants to blame it on one problem or the other when in reality it is a little more complex than that.
Someone has to wait until they are 21 before they can buy alcohol.. But can buy an AR-15 at 18?
Posted on 2/16/18 at 9:42 am to OweO
quote:
Someone has to wait until they are 21 before they can buy alcohol.. But can buy an AR-15 at 18?
Yea and they can shoot similar weapons at foreign enemies at 18 too, so that point is dumb.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 9:56 am to TH03
quote:
Yea and they can shoot similar weapons at foreign enemies at 18 too, so that point is dumb.
Yeah, I knew this was going to come up... But I think people in the military should get a pass. They should be able to go in a bar and buy a beer..
A responsible person, who is 18, should be able to buy guns, but I think they should not be able to do so unless they have an adult co-sign for them. My whole point is that there are little things that can be done. It might not completely fix a problem, but at least make it more difficult. And when it comes to mass school shootings, who are doing the shootings? People under the age of 21.. That will not stop mass shootings from happening at other places, by people who are over 21.. But it shouldn't be an all or nothing situation. But then again, that would impact sells so as long as special interest groups throw around the amount of money they are able to throw around, it will be hard for anything to get done. Which I think is sad.. Because it shows who really runs this country.
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