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Message
re: Part of the new Hard Rock Hotel collapses (NOLA) 3 dead, Cranes Down-ish
Posted on 10/13/19 at 1:02 pm to Napoleon
Posted on 10/13/19 at 1:02 pm to Napoleon
Napoleon,
The shores I was referring to are the temporary shores placed before the concrete decks are poured. Once the deck pour reaches a certain compressive strength they can be removed and the composite action of the deck and red iron framing stands on its own.
It is very common for this process to be done wrong (too few shores, shores removed early, etc). I’m not saying that’s what happened here but it’s caused problems on multistory construction in the past.
Like you said we won’t know the official cause for a while.
The shores I was referring to are the temporary shores placed before the concrete decks are poured. Once the deck pour reaches a certain compressive strength they can be removed and the composite action of the deck and red iron framing stands on its own.
It is very common for this process to be done wrong (too few shores, shores removed early, etc). I’m not saying that’s what happened here but it’s caused problems on multistory construction in the past.
Like you said we won’t know the official cause for a while.
2
Posted on 10/13/19 at 1:05 pm to skidry
That is the corrugated metal decking and stays in place.
Still, most designs like this require a temporary shoring system during and after the pour of the deck.
Still, most designs like this require a temporary shoring system during and after the pour of the deck.
Posted on 10/13/19 at 1:09 pm to AndyCBR
Not a structural engineer.
What I am wondering is if the heavy loading of supplies on one side combined with the falling dumpster exceeded the weight limit and caused the pancaking.
All indications are that the building was loaded on that one side to help bring materials to the roof for the installation of the pool.
If that dumpster was one of those materials and the weight was near capacity when it was moved, it falling back down now means that same weight times gravity time distance with additional weight to be added in for any cable and hook from he crane that came with it.
It may land in an area that held the dumpster before but the additional force caused by gravity, cable, and hook was enough to breach limits and cause a cascade of damage.
What I am wondering is if the heavy loading of supplies on one side combined with the falling dumpster exceeded the weight limit and caused the pancaking.
All indications are that the building was loaded on that one side to help bring materials to the roof for the installation of the pool.
If that dumpster was one of those materials and the weight was near capacity when it was moved, it falling back down now means that same weight times gravity time distance with additional weight to be added in for any cable and hook from he crane that came with it.
It may land in an area that held the dumpster before but the additional force caused by gravity, cable, and hook was enough to breach limits and cause a cascade of damage.
Posted on 10/13/19 at 1:19 pm to teke184
Certainly possible.
Posted on 10/13/19 at 1:21 pm to AndyCBR
quote:
Buildings have collapsed in the past due to premature removal of shores. Yes, metal stud framing typically frames the building envelope off the red iron structure. As I said in a previous post there seems to be very little red iron framing up high.
Agree with this. Composite slabs need to have those shear studs in place and have the slabs at an adequate strength before removing shores. It is speculative without more info but easy to imagine where if you have a green slab combined some lift accident that can cause a progressive failure like this.
Theres an entire industry to study failures like this (forensic engineering), and the investigators will look at core samples of various concrete slabs, take coupons from steel beams, and look for a root cause.
Eta:adequate concrete strength not 28 day compressive design
This post was edited on 10/13/19 at 1:57 pm
Posted on 10/13/19 at 2:23 pm to cgrand
quote:
the OT structural engineers and commercial real estate lawyers have already decided that this incident was due to faulty design installed by an incompetent contractor and ultimate liability resides with the hotel operator
nice try though
I've got no expertise, and won't even pretend to contribute anything substantial, but it still seems to me that dropping a dumpster shouldn't destroy a building, absent other issues.
I'd be happy to listen to corrections, though. I'm always genuinely impressed by the various areas of real knowledge that show up here.
Posted on 10/13/19 at 2:57 pm to tokenBoiler
Similar principle to 9/11.
A fire shouldn't destroy a building. Nor should heavy lateral impact. The combination of both caused a very heavy load to fall and that caused a fast pancaking of the buildings.
The dumpster takes out one floor. Then the weight of that floor takes out the next, then those two floors take out the next, then those three floors.... and so on.
Plausible
A fire shouldn't destroy a building. Nor should heavy lateral impact. The combination of both caused a very heavy load to fall and that caused a fast pancaking of the buildings.
The dumpster takes out one floor. Then the weight of that floor takes out the next, then those two floors take out the next, then those three floors.... and so on.
Plausible
Posted on 10/13/19 at 3:00 pm to teke184
Stop thinking that a heavy dumpster was the cause. Are you forgetting all the love and dead loads that are considered when designing these buildings?
Posted on 10/13/19 at 3:02 pm to Napoleon
In the gif you can see the end of the crane swaying up then down a good bit at the building collapse starts, maybe that it catastrophically lost a load. Also the load looks close to the upright part of the crane which is where the building collapsed. There is a also a yellow dumpster hanging off the side of the collapsed building about halfway down. All could be effects, but may be causes of the failure.
Also, looking closer, it appears the crane was tied off of lifting some steel.
Also, looking closer, it appears the crane was tied off of lifting some steel.
This post was edited on 10/13/19 at 3:09 pm
Posted on 10/13/19 at 3:09 pm to Napoleon
A dumpster didn't cause that.
Asinine to even imply it.
Asinine to even imply it.
Posted on 10/13/19 at 3:12 pm to Sheepdog1833
That isn't a dumpster.
It's a fricking landing platform for a lower level.
It's a fricking landing platform for a lower level.
Posted on 10/13/19 at 3:19 pm to MrLarson
quote:
That isn't a dumpster.
It's a fricking landing platform for a lower level
You’re right.
And an angry elf.
This post was edited on 10/13/19 at 3:21 pm
Posted on 10/13/19 at 3:47 pm to Sheepdog1833
quote:
And an angry elf.
You're gotdamn right I am.
It's people like you and Nap talking stupid soccer mom FB shite.
Other side of the building. Why didn't this collapse?
If this shite was easy women and children would be doing it.
If I need my ice maker fixed I'll page him. I guess if I need a sheep dog I'll page you.
Looks like both of you are running cover for someone.
Y'all work for the housing authority? Is that how nap does all his work?
Posted on 10/13/19 at 4:08 pm to MrLarson
The frick are you talking about tough guy? I’ll be the first to admit I know not a fricking thing about building loads. I was just commenting on what I see in the videos and pics. You corrected me about the dumpster. Thanks. The world is a better place with you in it.
Posted on 10/13/19 at 4:23 pm to Napoleon
quote:
Similar principle to 9/11.
A fire shouldn't destroy a building. Nor should heavy lateral impact. The combination of both caused a very heavy load to fall and that caused a fast pancaking of the buildings.
The dumpster takes out one floor. Then the weight of that floor takes out the next, then those two floors take out the next, then those three floors.... and so on.
Plausible
Thanks. I get the progression part, I think I'm just surprised that a falling dumpster can take out the first one. I'm guessing, though, that the dumpster in question would be a lot bigger and heavier than what I visualize?
Posted on 10/13/19 at 4:25 pm to Sheepdog1833
You posted some bullshite.
People died and you posted some seriously edited post.
Post that whole FB screencap so we can see who is promoting that crap that Nap is promoting.
Please do it.
ETA:
I'm in Birmingham Alabama and this has zero to do with me.
But someone is in CYA mode right now and you posted it.
Trash dumpster
Someone has never been on a jobsite in their life.
20' roll off on the roof
People died and you posted some seriously edited post.
Post that whole FB screencap so we can see who is promoting that crap that Nap is promoting.
Please do it.
ETA:
I'm in Birmingham Alabama and this has zero to do with me.
But someone is in CYA mode right now and you posted it.
Trash dumpster
Someone has never been on a jobsite in their life.
20' roll off on the roof
This post was edited on 10/13/19 at 4:32 pm
Posted on 10/13/19 at 4:57 pm to MrLarson
Dude. F you. Explain your theory don't attack people behind a computer. Just spitballing theories.
What's your thoughts?
ETA.
IT COULD still be shoddy engineering. It could be a crane accident. We don't know. But no one besides you is acting an arse up in the thread. Typical loud arse gump.
What's your thoughts?
ETA.
IT COULD still be shoddy engineering. It could be a crane accident. We don't know. But no one besides you is acting an arse up in the thread. Typical loud arse gump.
This post was edited on 10/13/19 at 5:08 pm
Posted on 10/13/19 at 5:05 pm to J Murdah
Could the installation of the roof top pool on Thursday cause the collapse?
Posted on 10/13/19 at 5:13 pm to Napoleon
quote:
IT COULD still be shoddy engineering. It could be a crane accident. We don't know. But no one besides you is acting an arse up in the thread. Typical loud arse gump.
Naw,
You said it was a dumpster.
fricking rigging supplier is responsible to the crane company is at fault.
Posted on 10/13/19 at 5:15 pm to ErikGordan
quote:
Could the installation of the roof top pool on Thursday cause the collapse?
Watch the drone footage, pool is already installed on the back side of the building.
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