- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
re: Let’s have a WWI discussion. Which country is most at fault for it?
Posted on 4/4/19 at 10:38 pm to Darth_Vader
Posted on 4/4/19 at 10:38 pm to Darth_Vader
But Russian mobilization didn’t just happen. If Germany doesn’t goad AH into their Serbia stance then Russia doesn’t mobilize. Germany knew exactly what they were doing. They wanted Russia to mobilize as an excuse to attack. You can say Russia mobilizing was the point of no return but it was not the cause of the war.
0
Posted on 4/4/19 at 10:38 pm to alajones
quote:
They “knew”? Did they? Turns out Russia was in no shape to do doodlie squat.
No, they didn’t know. And it was their best guess based off of years of intelligence and years of Russia modernizing their military and becoming a great power.
Was Russia the monster Germany thought they would be? No, but that’s 20/20 hindsight for us over a century later. Germany saw a modernizing Russia with massive reserves to their East and a bloodthirsty France to their West. They overestimated Russia and underestimated France.
This post was edited on 4/4/19 at 10:53 pm
Posted on 4/5/19 at 12:56 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
like what
Dig in, hold the line. Russia nor France is coming through Germany to fight for Serbia. If the Russians smash Austria Hungary, so what? They were a liability anyway.
Eta: this keeps the UK out of the war, Russia and Serbia roll AH, France is late to the show, they divvy up an insignificant chunk of land.
IMO, WWI was going to happen one way or another. Germany/ottomans and France and Russia and the UK all had a score to settle and dicks to measure so had it not kicked off in 1914 it would have kicked off a few years later. Serb radicals shooting an arch Duke could have been handled better thougj
This post was edited on 4/5/19 at 1:00 am
Posted on 4/5/19 at 1:18 am to alajones
This is sad. I hate to see a debate end this way. Darth has been edging you out for the entire thread but you were hanging in there with some reasonable logic. But then you got all emotional and started stamping your feet like a 6 year old who is being denied a bag of gummy worms in the check out line. And then quit in a bitch like fashion with that last sentence as proof. You come off now as an emotional soy boy professor. Disgraceful.
Posted on 4/5/19 at 6:04 am to TigerFanInSouthland
Austria-Hungary. They escalated.
Posted on 4/5/19 at 7:22 am to alajones
quote:
I’m still not convinced and have never been convinced that it was something they had to do and had no other more diplomatic or de-escalating options.
Well give us an example then. You’re the one proclaiming how much you know about the subject. Germany asked Russia to stop, they didn’t. Germany sends ultimatum to Russia if they do not stop, its war. Russia doesn’t stop.
Furthermore, Germany had a legitimate, hard, signed on the dotted line pact with Austria-Hungary. They had to go to war. Russia had no such alliance with Serbia that I know of, other than viewing themselves as the Slav protectorate.
Posted on 4/5/19 at 7:26 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
Serbia and Austria Hungary for lighting the fuse
But after that point, Germany basically said, "oh shite, theres a fight....let's go start hitting all these mofos I've always wanted to take a shot at". Admittedly pre existing alliances brought people into the war that never should have been, but no one outside of Germany was on as much of an offensive push. Everyone else felt threatened by what they were doing.
Posted on 4/5/19 at 7:37 am to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
I think there is blame enough to go around but I don’t think Russia and Britain get enough blame a lot of the time.
This is a pretty big stretch. The Entente existed solely to deter Germany from doing anything like this.
Sure, if Britain had been just a little more assertive in diplomacy, early on, but in classic British fashion they wanted to hold out to be the honest broker. They clearly DGAF about the Balkans and could have mediated the Austrian/Serbian dispute more easily than anyone.
WWI was all Germany, frankly. They wanted the Balkans question settled sooner than later. They thought that Serbia being neutered would build the final wall around Russia. They knew they were going to have to get it on with France and they felt they had the advantage in the mid teens.
The Habsburg beef with Serbia was just the excuse for Germany to light the match.
This post was edited on 4/5/19 at 7:42 am
Posted on 4/5/19 at 7:41 am to KG6
quote:
But after that point, Germany basically said, "oh shite, theres a fight....let's go start hitting all these mofos I've always wanted to take a shot at".
While this is somewhat accurate regarding Germany sentiment, recall they all but insisted that Austria-Hungary attack Serbia. They engineered the entire thing with the assassination as the pretext.
If Germany said, "Bluster all you want, but do not mobilize. Begin negotiations with Russia over exactly what Serbia must do to make it right. We will, likewise, push Russia to help us with the monarchical traditions" - then no Great War (or the sequel). Probably no Soviet Union or Red China, either.
German aggression is solely responsible for those 2 wars, period.
This post was edited on 4/5/19 at 7:43 am
Posted on 4/5/19 at 8:44 am to Dick Leverage
quote:
But then you got all emotional and started stamping your feet like a 6 year old who is being denied a bag of gummy worms in the check out line. And then quit in a bitch like fashion with that last sentence as proof. You come off now as an emotional soy boy professor. Disgraceful.
Because I don't want to engage in an argument all night? Darth has his mind made up already and nothing I would type or write will change that so why keep engaging?
You don't find it ironic and hypocritical at all that you immediately began name calling while calling me a 6 year old? Show me somewhere, anywhere where I have personally attacked someone in this thread.
I get up at 4:55 every morning and I had no time to keep "debating" much less the interest to continue.
Get 30 different historians in a room and you'll get 30 different opinions on what happened, how it happened, what could've happened, etc.
I know that most people's favorite thing to do is to keep arguing on the internet but it is not mine.
ETA: I mean. I'm really surprised. Darth's argument is literally:
Russia mobilizes---> Germany has NO choice but to invade Belgium.
I have never heard/read that from anywhere else. Ever.
This post was edited on 4/5/19 at 9:30 am
Posted on 4/5/19 at 2:04 pm to alajones
quote:
ETA: I mean. I'm really surprised. Darth's argument is literally: Russia mobilizes---> Germany has NO choice but to invade Belgium.
It’s like you didn’t read his argument at all.
quote:
Darth has his mind made up already and nothing I would type or write will change that so why keep engaging?
This isn’t a political debate pal, we’re not debating ideologies. Come in here with verifiable facts as to why it’s only Germany’s fault and I’m sure it’d change his mind. However, you kept saying essentially they could’ve done “anything” other than what they did. Of course they could have, but could you be a little more specific as to what that “anything” is and inform us?
Posted on 4/5/19 at 2:52 pm to alajones
It turns out Russia wasn't in shape for it with the domestic situation.
But Russia always had two things going for it. General Winter and human resources. Quantity was their quality and Germany had some near misses with it.
If Russia is mobilizing.
And you know France is in a pact with them.
And France also has territorial disputes with you.
But they've only really fortified their eastern borders and left their north borders relatively free.
Then you go through the north which is Belgium.
Belgium was fricked either way. They could resist invasion as they declared neutrality, which they did. They could let the invasion through which would break neutrality. They could immediately go to war, which they didn't have the resources for.
Any of those options is Belgium taking it on the chin.
But Russia always had two things going for it. General Winter and human resources. Quantity was their quality and Germany had some near misses with it.
If Russia is mobilizing.
And you know France is in a pact with them.
And France also has territorial disputes with you.
But they've only really fortified their eastern borders and left their north borders relatively free.
Then you go through the north which is Belgium.
Belgium was fricked either way. They could resist invasion as they declared neutrality, which they did. They could let the invasion through which would break neutrality. They could immediately go to war, which they didn't have the resources for.
Any of those options is Belgium taking it on the chin.
Posted on 4/5/19 at 4:13 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
Come in here with verifiable facts as to why it’s only Germany’s fault and I’m sure it’d change his mind.
No it wouldn’t. And I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. We are both providing the same facts. We just disagree on the possible outcomes. He is of the opinion that the only possible outcome was war. Germany had NO choice.
I’m okay with people having different opinions and counter arguments. That’s called thinking.
This is why I don’t get into these kinds of threads that often. But WWI is kind of my baby and I couldn’t resist.
I should’ve known better. The fault is with me.
This post was edited on 4/5/19 at 4:16 pm
Posted on 4/5/19 at 4:15 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
I say it's Trump fault. Seems the Democrats think he is responsible for everything else
Posted on 4/5/19 at 4:16 pm to ZULU
Posted on 4/5/19 at 4:42 pm to alajones
quote:
But WWI is kind of my baby
By your responses in this very thread, I’d have to be skeptical about that. You have done nothing to prove that it’s your baby. Or that you know more than 99% of the people on the planet do about WWI.
I honestly, would enjoy hearing your reasons and being further educated on the subject.
Posted on 4/5/19 at 5:19 pm to alajones
I think the point that Darth and myself are embracing is that Germany and its leader were extremely paranoid about being bordered by enemies and they thought the only way they could survive a war being flanked by both would be to attack preemptively to knock France out before Russia could fully mobilize.
That’s what the Germans thought then, and their paranoia should’ve been obvious when they demanded that Russia stop mobilizing for war.
Did Germany have to preemptively attack France? No, but they didn’t know that then. Did they know that Russia would be a paper tiger anyway, no.
Russia had begun mobilizing way before it was obvious to Germany anyway (IIRC) so that further lends credence to the notion (IMO) that Germany’s paranoia was justified and Russia’s actions in mobilization was the real spark that set off the war.
That’s what the Germans thought then, and their paranoia should’ve been obvious when they demanded that Russia stop mobilizing for war.
Did Germany have to preemptively attack France? No, but they didn’t know that then. Did they know that Russia would be a paper tiger anyway, no.
Russia had begun mobilizing way before it was obvious to Germany anyway (IIRC) so that further lends credence to the notion (IMO) that Germany’s paranoia was justified and Russia’s actions in mobilization was the real spark that set off the war.
Posted on 4/5/19 at 5:24 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
That entire Yugoslavia are.
Those fricks will never stop fighting.
Those fricks will never stop fighting.
Posted on 4/5/19 at 5:35 pm to rmnldr
quote:
I think the point that Darth and myself are embracing is that Germany and its leader were extremely paranoid about being bordered by enemies
It's not paranoia if it's true.
Posted on 4/5/19 at 6:48 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:
You have done nothing to prove that it’s your baby.
I have nothing to prove to anyone.
I gave my reasons very early on and don’t feel like repeating them over and over unlike someone else in this thread.
Considering you’re the OP and actually asked for discussion,I’m starting to think that went by the wayside a while back and all you want is to prove me wrong about something.
Which is what all these types of threads seem to devolve into.
Anyway. Like I said, I knew what I was getting into.
At 8:27 last night, I gave my reasons for my position. Which I thought was very clear.
It’s like you just read the first paragraph and stopped. A paragraph which was directed at Darth acting like I’m uninformed about the facts. Because in his mind, that’s apparently the only way I can have a different opinion than him on the matter of whether or not Germany had only one option, and that was to enact the Schlieffen plan.
This post was edited on 4/5/19 at 6:53 pm
Page 6 of 7
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News