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Let’s discuss WWII era tanks
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:22 pm
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:22 pm
One of the most hotly contested subjects among WWII history buffs is which was the best tank in WWII. Some say the Soviet T-34/85, some the PzKpfw V Panther, others either the PzKpfw VI Tiger or Königstiger. A few even contend it’s the venerable M4 Sherman.
But really, when it comes to arguing about thr “best” Tank of WWII, first you have to define what being “best” actually is. And that’s where the debate begins. Are we talking which tank was the most reliable? The most mobile? Had the best armor? The most powerful gun?
All these things must be considered. Take the Königstiger for example. With frontal armor of up to 185mm and a devastating 8.8cm kwk 43 main gun, she could go toe to toe with massed numbers of enemy tanks and wipe them out with ease. But due to its 68 ton weight and underpowered Maybach HL230 Gasoline engine, it was slow and not very reliable. And no matter how good your armor and gun are, they’re worthless if you can’t actually remain mobile.
So what about the famous T34/85? It was legendary for its cross country mobility, it’s reliably, and with its sloped armor and more than capable 52-K 85mm main gun it was deadly on the battlefield. But had serious drawbacks. The most telling drawback was it’s crude sighting system for the main gun that limited the maximum range it could engage enemy tanks. There are countless stories of small Kampftruppen decimating entire Soviet tank brigades from long range before the T34s could even see, much less engage, their tormentors.
So that brings us to the American M4 Sherman. Much like the Soviet T34, it was reliable, easy to maintain, had good cross country mobility, and most importantly was quite fast. And early on when it first saw action (actually with the British) in North Africa against the DAK, it was more than a match for the Italian M14/40s and German PzKpfw IIIs & IVs. But by the time the Allies landed in Normandy the M4s shortcomings were becoming apparent. The newer German Panthers and Tigers could kill the M4 with ease while the Sherman’s only hope was to outflank their German opponents. But let’s keep in mind what the Sherman was designed to do. It was never intended, at least originally, to engage enemy tanks in battle. That was the job of the tank destroyers according to American doctrine. Only with the introduction of the 76mm M1A1 main gun could the Sherman have any hope of engaging German Panthers and Tigers, and even then they dared not do it from the front.
So that leaves us with what, in my opinion, ended up being the best tank of WWII, the Sd.kfz 171 Panzerkampfwagen V “Panther”. Ironically it began its life during Operation Zitadelle, better known as the “Battle of Kursk”, where it proved to be not ready for prime-time. It was brand new and had been rush into production to be ready for the German summer offensive in 1943. This meant it went into battle with unreliable transmissions and had a tendency for final drive failure. However, these problems were identified and fixed after the failure at Kursk. This is when the Panther came into its own. It’s excellent cross country mobility, verified in post war trials against both the Sherman and T-34, was as good or better than any tank in the war. It’s sloped armor, copied from the Soviet’s T-34, gave it excellent protection. And it’s 7.5cm main gun, coupled with the excellent Ziess sights that were such a gargantuan advantage to all German Panzer crews throughout the war, meant the Panther could and did often engage and destroy enemy tanks at ranges those enemy tanks had no hope of defending themselves. It’s main drawback was, if anything, and like most German vehicles, it was over-engineered. This, along with the myriad of other armored vehicles the Germans insisted on producing, meant there simply were never enough Panthers in the field to hold back the tides coming from both east & west hell bent on destroying the Nazi state.
But, and this is just my educated opinion, if I had to go into a engagement on a European battlefield during WWII, and I was given the option of choosing the tank to do it that gave me the best chance of success, I’m taking the Panther.
Thoughts?
ETA: here’s a sneak peek at the next edition of Vader’s Model Desk…
But really, when it comes to arguing about thr “best” Tank of WWII, first you have to define what being “best” actually is. And that’s where the debate begins. Are we talking which tank was the most reliable? The most mobile? Had the best armor? The most powerful gun?
All these things must be considered. Take the Königstiger for example. With frontal armor of up to 185mm and a devastating 8.8cm kwk 43 main gun, she could go toe to toe with massed numbers of enemy tanks and wipe them out with ease. But due to its 68 ton weight and underpowered Maybach HL230 Gasoline engine, it was slow and not very reliable. And no matter how good your armor and gun are, they’re worthless if you can’t actually remain mobile.
So what about the famous T34/85? It was legendary for its cross country mobility, it’s reliably, and with its sloped armor and more than capable 52-K 85mm main gun it was deadly on the battlefield. But had serious drawbacks. The most telling drawback was it’s crude sighting system for the main gun that limited the maximum range it could engage enemy tanks. There are countless stories of small Kampftruppen decimating entire Soviet tank brigades from long range before the T34s could even see, much less engage, their tormentors.
So that brings us to the American M4 Sherman. Much like the Soviet T34, it was reliable, easy to maintain, had good cross country mobility, and most importantly was quite fast. And early on when it first saw action (actually with the British) in North Africa against the DAK, it was more than a match for the Italian M14/40s and German PzKpfw IIIs & IVs. But by the time the Allies landed in Normandy the M4s shortcomings were becoming apparent. The newer German Panthers and Tigers could kill the M4 with ease while the Sherman’s only hope was to outflank their German opponents. But let’s keep in mind what the Sherman was designed to do. It was never intended, at least originally, to engage enemy tanks in battle. That was the job of the tank destroyers according to American doctrine. Only with the introduction of the 76mm M1A1 main gun could the Sherman have any hope of engaging German Panthers and Tigers, and even then they dared not do it from the front.
So that leaves us with what, in my opinion, ended up being the best tank of WWII, the Sd.kfz 171 Panzerkampfwagen V “Panther”. Ironically it began its life during Operation Zitadelle, better known as the “Battle of Kursk”, where it proved to be not ready for prime-time. It was brand new and had been rush into production to be ready for the German summer offensive in 1943. This meant it went into battle with unreliable transmissions and had a tendency for final drive failure. However, these problems were identified and fixed after the failure at Kursk. This is when the Panther came into its own. It’s excellent cross country mobility, verified in post war trials against both the Sherman and T-34, was as good or better than any tank in the war. It’s sloped armor, copied from the Soviet’s T-34, gave it excellent protection. And it’s 7.5cm main gun, coupled with the excellent Ziess sights that were such a gargantuan advantage to all German Panzer crews throughout the war, meant the Panther could and did often engage and destroy enemy tanks at ranges those enemy tanks had no hope of defending themselves. It’s main drawback was, if anything, and like most German vehicles, it was over-engineered. This, along with the myriad of other armored vehicles the Germans insisted on producing, meant there simply were never enough Panthers in the field to hold back the tides coming from both east & west hell bent on destroying the Nazi state.
But, and this is just my educated opinion, if I had to go into a engagement on a European battlefield during WWII, and I was given the option of choosing the tank to do it that gave me the best chance of success, I’m taking the Panther.
Thoughts?
ETA: here’s a sneak peek at the next edition of Vader’s Model Desk…
This post was edited on 9/18/22 at 7:27 pm
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:27 pm to Darth_Vader
How about a Panther vs Abraham’s ? Could the panther ever have a shot?
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:30 pm to Warfox
quote:
How about a Panther vs Abraham’s ? Could the panther ever have a shot?
You mean the Panther against the Abrams? If so, then I’d say the Panther would have the same chance as a small blind, crippled child would have in a fight against full gown silverback gorilla.
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:31 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:Germans.
...I’m taking the Panther.
In terms of individual fighting capability, I would agree with you. However, in the context of contemporary, industrial warfare I would go with the M4 Sherman.
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:32 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
Germans. In terms of individual fighting capability, I would agree with you. However, in the context of contemporary, industrial warfare I would go with the M4 Sherman.
Zerg rush FTW.
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:33 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
And that’s where the debate begins. Are we talking which tank was the most reliable? The most mobile? Had the best armor? The most powerful gun?
KV-2 FTW
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:34 pm to Darth_Vader
Well done Darth, appreciate the good read.
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:35 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
In terms of individual fighting capability, I would agree with you. However, in the context of contemporary, industrial warfare I would go with the M4 Sherman.
And this did, in the end, prove to be the right choice. But it came at the cost of thousands of dead American tankers. But, as I said the OP, according to American doctrine, the Sherman was not intended to engage enemy tanks in open battle. That job was for the M10, M18, and finally M36 tank destroyers, which did prove more than capable of getting the job done.
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:36 pm to jeffsdad
quote:
Well done Darth, appreciate the good read.
I’m glad you liked it.
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:42 pm to Darth_Vader
Give me a working Tiger I or 2 every day and twice on Sunday
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:45 pm to Darth_Vader
That’s sure a great big wall of text. Dayum
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:45 pm to Darth_Vader
I'll take a Tiger I please.
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:48 pm to beerJeep
quote:
KV-2 FTW
Well, it did have excellent armor for its time. And the 152mm gun was devastating. But those were the only things it’s had going for it. It was extremely slow, prone to breakdown, carried a very limited amount of ammo, and had a terrible rate of fire. It even had trouble traversing it’s turret unless it was sitting on flat ground.
And, much like the Sherman, it was not designed to engage in Tank v. Tank battles. Instead it was an infantry support tank designed to destroy hardened enemy bunkers.
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:51 pm to TutHillTiger
Sherman’s had to work in teams to kill a Tiger, there is an excellent movie about life and death of Sherman tank crews, with I think Brad Pitt in it. I think it is loosely based on true story. Russian T-34 tanks were a little bit better, I think they had longer range etc, but basically they used a swarm attack with numbers and damn the torpedoes full speed ahead method dealing with tigers, which was basically just get the shite blown out of you until you can damage a track, run them out of ammo or gas.
If I was going to be stuck in a steel coffin, I think I want to best one available. Yes they were too complicated, could be unreliable, at times, and gas guzzlers but they were the best tanks in WW2.
If I was going to be stuck in a steel coffin, I think I want to best one available. Yes they were too complicated, could be unreliable, at times, and gas guzzlers but they were the best tanks in WW2.
Posted on 9/18/22 at 7:53 pm to Wolfhound45
quote:
However, in the context of contemporary, industrial warfare I would go with the M4 Sherman.
Quantity has it's own quality.
Panther was probably the best concept but the typical German over engineering made them less reliable and much more difficult and expensive to repair, let alone construct in the first place, compared to the Sherman or T34 which limited them on the battlefield.
*The M26 was likely the best tank of the war but very few ever made it into battle.
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