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re: June 4, 1942 - The Battle of Midway
Posted on 6/4/24 at 9:06 pm to Liberator
Posted on 6/4/24 at 9:06 pm to Liberator
quote:
Given the US had already broken the Japanese code since before Pearl Harbor (hmmm... ), knowing far in advance that the main Jap Naval Force was steaming to Midway, catching them completely by surprise should have been a foregone conclusion to begin with at Midway.
Even Rochefort admitted that the codebreaking could only decipher 10% of the transmissions at best. Also, even when the code was broken, it wasn't like the Japanese were transmitting in simple terms. They still used coded references to actual locations. Hence the water treatment facility ruse they planted in order to confirm their suspicions that Midway was in play. Now throw in the fact its 1942 and you couldn't just have a conference call and bring people up to speed across the globe and change entire paradigms. Hindsight is wonderful, but at the time, the decision to move the carriers northwest of Midway was a huge gamble made by all involved.
2
Posted on 6/4/24 at 9:21 pm to ItzMe1972
quote:
Pensacola Navy Air Museum is a great place. This SBD is on display and was at the Midway battle. I was able to touch it and the patched bullet holes. In the background is a PBY which is the type of patrol plane that spotted the fleet. (Also the type of plane that rescued my Dad after being shot down).
Did the exact thing. Literally walked around that plane a dozen times for 45 mins (wife claims it was over an hour, but she is full of shite). Love the story about how it was taken out of service after Midway, had its bullet holes patched (which I pointed out no less than a dozen times to passersby my wife claims, but see above), and was sent to the Great Lakes training site for duration of the war. While there, it was crashed by a trainee and sat at the bottom of Lake Michigan for 60 years before being raised and refurbished for display at the NAS museum in Pensacola.
By the way, its been said before, but I don't know of any person who visited that museum who wasn't impressed and stayed longer than they thought they would. I make it a point to go every year we are over there and I find something new and interesting every trip. And last summer it reopened to the general public after being closed for a few years after the NAS shooting attack.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 9:57 pm to Frac the world
quote:
Dick Best GOAT
Talk about having the defining day of your life. That morning, Richard Halsey Best goes over in his SBD Dauntless at 10K feet to began his dive and notices a clusterfrick in targeting as all 30 plus planes are diving on one carrier. He then diverts himself and two of his squadron at the last second to dive on the Akagi. He has the only direct hit on the carrier and it sinks hours later after his bomb detonates a ton of Jap ordinance.
They fly back to the Enterprise where they have a sandwich and a few smokes and head back out that afternoon to locate the last of the four active Jap carriers. They do just that and reports say his bomb hit directly aft of the bridge of the Hiryu, with his being one of several that sent her to the bottom of the Pacific.
Two bombs, two carrier hits, two carriers sunk. And these were his last two Naval flights, When he landed after his second mission (on fumes, with others from his group out of fuel and having to ditch in the sea next to the carrier), he began coughing up blood and would be hospitalized for the next 15 months. A faulty oxygen supply canister caused him to inhale caustic soda that day which exasperated a previous case of latent tuberculosis and forced his grounding and eventual retirement from the Navy in 1944.
He went on to work for Douglass Aircraft for 30 years and lived to be 91 years old, passing away in 2001. Dickie fricking Best. How he hasnt been awarded the Medal of Honor, even posthumously, is mindboggling.
This post was edited on 6/4/24 at 10:02 pm
Posted on 6/4/24 at 10:40 pm to Gee Grenouille
quote:
Those Wouk books are the only reason I know so much about WW2. Such great reads.
Likewise, I started with “The Winds of War.” Terrific historical novel author, on par with Michener.
One of my uncles was a USMC Avenger tail gunner, a long time neighbor a Marine grunt during the Pacific campaign. Both great men.
Nimitz and Halsey don’t get the credit they richly deserve. My opinion of MacArthur isn’t very high but a great post war administrator in Japan.
Yamamoto after Pearl Harbor; “I fear
all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.”
It was a different time in the world.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 2:34 am to Indefatigable
quote:
I still like the 70's midway movie
Still angers me that they felt the need to introduce the stupid love story nonsense in there.
Totally agree and they screw up westerns the same way.
For the poster that asked No love for Harms Way its one of my favorite movies.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 5:59 am to Ace Midnight
Cause we’ll put a boot in your arse it’s the American way
Posted on 6/5/24 at 6:24 am to AlxTgr
Maybe Charlton Heston lives this time? Great movie though....Henry Fonda as Nimitz. Glenn Ford as Spruance and Robert Mitchum as Halsey......and some pilot watching the whole thing from the water
This post was edited on 6/5/24 at 6:25 am
Posted on 6/5/24 at 7:59 am to Darth_Vader
quote:
Victory at Midway made the Solomons Campaign possible, that’s undeniable. But it was there in the Solomons where the tide finally and irrevocably turned in our favor.
Cant disagree witht his.
what would have been interesting. with No Midway, Guadalcanal landing is pushed back, japan completes its airfield and digs in. MacArthur has leverage over the navy and gets divisions assigned to him (Europe first agreement, limited divisions/resources for the pacific) Mac pushes his New Guinea campaign.
Without the constant meat grinder of the Soloman's wearing down Jap men/planes/ships can the US stop Japan's push through the Koda Trail to Port Moresby?
Would the Allies needed to rethink the divisional and resource limits to the pacific vs europe if Japan was still expanding....... Does this delay the north Africa campaign? Delay/cancel italy campaign, delay D-Day..
Midway allowed the Europe First plan to continue, Guadalcanal/Solomon's bleed Japan and allowed the US war economy to take over, as japan could no longer supply planes/ships and veteran crews
Love lookig at alternate history scenarios...
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:19 am to tigeraddict
quote:
Without the constant meat grinder of the Soloman's wearing down Jap men/planes/ships can the US stop Japan's push through the Koda Trail to Port Moresby?
Exactly. Midway was a single battle. The Solomons was campaign of several battles on land, see, and air that pulled Japan into the fight of attrition they specifically set out to avoid.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:23 am to Basura Blanco
quote:
Given the US had already broken the Japanese code since before Pearl Harbor (hmmm... ), knowing far in advance that the main Jap Naval Force was steaming to Midway, catching them completely by surprise should have been a foregone conclusion to begin with at Midway.
quote:
Even Rochefort admitted that the codebreaking could only decipher 10% of the transmissions at best. Also, even when the code was broken, it wasn't like the Japanese were transmitting in simple terms. They still used coded references to actual locations. Hence the water treatment facility ruse they planted in order to confirm their suspicions that Midway was in play. Now throw in the fact its 1942 and you couldn't just have a conference call and bring people up to speed across the globe and change entire paradigms. Hindsight is wonderful, but at the time, the decision to move the carriers northwest of Midway was a huge gamble made by all involved.
It was all calculated risk. Nimitz knew they were coming. He knew which direction they were coming from, and that the carrier group and the heavy surface group were not close enough to each other for mutual support. This allowed him to position his fleet in the best location to both hunt their carriers and retreat intact if things went south.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 10:55 am to Mr Breeze
quote:
Likewise, I started with “The Winds of War.”
I recently found the 80s mini-series on You-Tube based on the books. Robert Mitchum plays Pug like its more of a documentary. I'm halfway through it. I read that Seth MacFarlane is working another adaptation that started in 2020. Covid probably slowed it down. I place that production in my "if I had a billion dollars" project. I'd give Speilberg, Hanks, or even Oliver Stone 150 million to put that together again.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 1:22 pm to Basura Blanco
quote:
Even Rochefort admitted that the codebreaking could only decipher 10% of the transmissions at best. Also, even when the code was broken, it wasn't like the Japanese were transmitting in simple terms. They still used coded references to actual locations.
Hindsight is wonderful, but at the time, the decision to move the carriers northwest of Midway was a huge gamble made by all involved.
The foresight: We absolutely knew for sure the Jap Carrier Armada was coming for either the Aleutians OR Midway -- just not sure exactly which to prep for. We tricked the Japs into revealing which one when we leaked a false message, "Having fresh water problems" (at Midway). When the Japs bit and gave away Midway as their primary objective, their goose was cooked. It was only a matter of executing the working plan for US planners.
I disagree with the assessment that Midway was a "huge gamble".
Given the stakes (and knowing Jap intent thanks to knowing their intent and timing in advance), assembling the surprise US Carrier attack force in was a necessary high-reward calculated risk. Odds were high that the US would badly damage at WORSE OR crush the Jap fleet at BEST. The "huge gamble" ( if there was any) was in messing up on the battle-game plan and attack-entrapment logistics.
These doesn't detract from or minimize American combatant leadership, bravery and initiative at all.
We had already de-coded enough of both diplomatic and military code of Japan since pre-Pearl to take them out eventually. (Questions must still be asked about the State Dept/ Exec Dec 7 decision)
Posted on 6/5/24 at 1:30 pm to Mr Breeze
quote:
Nimitz and Halsey don’t get the credit they richly deserve.
Halsey was a glory-hound.
He miscalculated badly at Leyte Gulf, taking Jap bait and going for the glory and big kill, which forced the tiny Taffy Group, comprised of Destroyers (see USS Johnston etal) to sacrifice themselves at San Bernadino Straits to prevent the main Jap fleet, incl Yammato, from taking out nearby US ground troops and encampment.
quote:
My opinion of MacArthur isn’t very high but a great post war administrator in Japan.
I concur.
quote:
It was a different time in the world.
Snapshot of military guts & glory, though unique, brief and storied.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 1:44 pm to Darth_Vader
I see one as a turning point and the other a nail in the coffin
Posted on 6/5/24 at 1:50 pm to Liberator
quote:
Halsey was a glory-hound.
He miscalculated badly at Leyte Gulf, taking Jap bait and going for the glory and big kill, which forced the tiny Taffy Group, comprised of Destroyers (see USS Johnston etal) to sacrifice themselves at San Bernadino Straits to prevent the main Jap fleet, incl Yammato, from taking out nearby US ground troops and encampment.
Posted on 6/5/24 at 2:01 pm to Liberator
quote:
Halsey was a glory-hound.
1942-43 Halsey was fantastic.
1944-45 Halsey war had passed him by and was abysmal.
quote:
My opinion of MacArthur isn’t very high but a great post war administrator in Japan.
Inchon in 1950 is his best moment as a general. He should NEVER have recieved the MoH especially after blocking Skinny's
This post was edited on 6/5/24 at 2:02 pm
Posted on 6/5/24 at 2:05 pm to geauxtigers87
MacArthur was a douche
Posted on 6/5/24 at 2:12 pm to Ace Midnight
Longest line I've ever seen to get into a movie.
This post was edited on 6/5/24 at 2:14 pm
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