re: Japan vs Nazi Germany (hypothetical alternative history)

OK... back to the German-Japaneses war of 1944. We've already established the German ground forces would completely outclass their Jap counterparts, but just to drive that point home we'll open up the air power comparison by giving you a glimpse at an aspect of air pwoer the Germans had that the Japs simply didn't... fround support.

German Ground Support aircraft...

This is the tank busting version of the Stuka. In addition to being able to put bombs on target with unmatched precision, this version had two under wing 37mm anti-tank guns that would rip anything to shreds the Japs put on the battle field. One caveat though, this aircraft required complete air supremacy as it was a sitting duck to fighters.

And this brings us to the aspect of air control. Which ever side has air control can dominate the other side totally. Simply put, air control means your planes can go up and do what you want them to do while the other side cannot. Air control is decided by who has the best pilots and fighters.

When it comes to the question of who had the best pilots, the Germans once again will have the edge. The reason for this is that while the Jap pilots in the early part of the war were second to none, there simply was just not enough of them. The japs took too long in training their pilots. This meant that while the initial crust was awesome, as those pilots died, the training process in Japan could never keep up with that natural attrition of warfare.

The Germans on the other hand also had very well trained pilots but not to the point there was not a steady stream of well trained pilots being fed into the Luftwaffe. (at least not until late in the "real" WWII). Thus when it comes to pilot expertise, it's really a toss up. Both sides have excellent pilots, Germany just has more of them.

This leads us to who has the best fighter aircraft? Well for the Germans, in 1944 they would have two primary front line fighters, the BF-109G;


and Fock Wulf Fw190


The Jap Air forces would have the A6M3 Zero;


And the Nakajima Ki-43-IIa "Oscar"


First off, armor protection goes to Germany by default. The Japs put zero armor on their aircraft. As for speed, the FW190 could hit 400 mph+ while the BF109 could hit 398 MPH. As for the Zero, it's top speed was 331 MPH and the Oscar topped out at 329 MPH. Bottom line the Germans outclassed the Japs in speed. So what about climb? The FW-190 and Zero were very close but the BF-109 could out climb them all. Finally, the aspect of armament, the Germans mixed in both HMG's and cannons while the Japs tended to concentrate two cannons on their fighters. The Germans had the advantage here in that they had both a hard punch and more lead to throw out.

so who would have air control? Probably Germany for two reasons, they had numbers on their side and their fighters were faster. Bottom line is speed kills.

Next up...a look at the naval aspect of this war.

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The battle of the North Atlantic proved that an inferior navy could win a supply war.

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Say what? The Battle of the North Atlantic ended around 1943-44 as a decisive Allied victory. Once the British and Americans came up with a better strategy to protect their convoys, the German U-Boat wolfpacks got the shite kicked out of them.

The aircraft carrier was the most decisive ship of the Pacific War. The Germans would not have been able to control the Pacific without them.

OK, so what about the war at sea between the Germans & Japs? Well, there really would not be much of a naval war really and here's why.

1. Germany really had no blue water fleet to speak of. Yes there was the mighty Bismarck and Tripetz along with a handful of pocket battleships and cruisers & destroyers. But really Germany simply did not have a battle fleet. They were a Continental power, not a sea power. What capital ships they did possess, would never have been risked by having the sail off to face the Japs in much the same manner the Russians squandered their Baltic Fleet against the Japs in 1905.

What the Germans would do would be to unleash their u-boats onto the shipping routes in the Indian & Pacific Oceans. By 1944 the Germans would have had their Type XXI subs that could span huge swaths of ocean totally submerged. And as the real WWII taught us, the Japs were highly vulnerable to submarine warfare and really never developed an answer to it.

So what would happen to the Japanese fleet? Well they might spend their war loitering in the Indian Ocean supporting the land war in Persia with things like shore bombardment and air support. But I do not think this would work for long as this would make the Jap fleet a sitting duck to the German u-boat wolf packs and land based airpower.

Really, the Jap fleet would probably be bottled up in home ports due to the u-boat threat to not only their ships but also to the oil tankers the fleet relied on. In the real WWII the Japs moved their fleet to Singapore later in the war so they could be close to their oil supplies. This is more than likely where the Germans would bottle up the Jap fleet in their war as well.

So after we look at the land, air, and sea aspects of a German vs. Japanese war, the picture becomes clear that it really would not be much of a war and instead would be a slaughter.

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All of this ignores the fact that the Japanese were not fighting a war on open plains or areas with developed roads. A huge tank does you very little good on a remote jungle island.

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A German vs. Jap war would not have taken place in the jungles of the remote islands of the Pacific. Instead it would have taken place on the Asian mainland more than likely in one of the three areas I described earlier.

extremely interesting read and break down of the most likely scenario.

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extremely interesting read and break down of the most likely scenario.

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Thank you. I do love me some history.

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Instead it would have taken place on the Asian mainland more than likely in one of the three areas I described earlier.

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And what part of the Asian mainland is plains or highly developed?

Darth makes the most sense out of all the responses that I have read. The plain and simple fact it the Germans would have beaten the Japs easily. I keep hearing this "but, but, but..."

Their (German) industrial might would give them the same edge we had over the Japs. With the stength of thier wolfpacks, the Japs would be stuck in port as Darth said.

The German equipment far outclassed that of the Japs - with the lone exception of the ships. But then, what would they need in the Pacific? After all, the Japs held a large area early in '42, but what happened to them? As Darth said, there is nothing in the Pacific that could have interested them. They would have controlled most of the mainlands (w/ the exception of hte U.S.), so that only would have left the Japs with a few Pacific islands.

Someone on here said that the German's large tanks would be useless. But they forget, that the Germans also had light (Panzers) and medium (Panthers) to go along with the Tiger heavies. The heaviest Jap tank was sorely outclassed by the lightest German one.

Aircraft would be no match, either. We all know the Jap aircraft lacked armor and self-sealing tanks until late in the war. Hell, the famed Zero had none of this and only got armored headrests in late 1944.

The only chance the Japs would have had against the Germans would be in a sea war, and then the wolfpacks would have made that very costly. But the Germans had manpower, industrial, and technological advantages that far outweighed that of the Japs. Logic dictates...

Though fun there is not really much debate here and exhaustive breakdowns aren't necessary. One only has to look at Khalkh in '39.

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hough fun there is not really much debate here and exhaustive breakdowns aren't necessary

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But I love exhaustive breakdowns when it comes to history.

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Khalkh in '39

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This was in the back of my mind while I gave my exhaustive breakdown.