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re: Is it impossible to travel to another solar system?

Posted on 4/8/14 at 10:57 am to
Posted by PacLSU
I have been a
Member since Sep 2003
3654 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 10:57 am to
Aren't black holes real life examples of the bending of space-time? If so, that means we can actually see warping space-time is possible. Not the case with going FTL.
Posted by notsince98
KC, MO
Member since Oct 2012
21337 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:00 am to
quote:

Aren't black holes real life examples of the bending of space-time? If so, that means we can actually see warping space-time is possible. Not the case with going FTL.


That is another can of worms. Hawking just released ANOTHER change to his theory on black holes. But theoretically, anything with mass has gravity and gravity is the bending of space-time.
Posted by Darth_Vader
A galaxy far, far away
Member since Dec 2011
72134 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:00 am to
quote:

And again, you'd be incorrect. I highly suggest you read up Kaku's talks on this topic. It is very much doable.

And we have no basic understanding of physics. We can't even explain the duality of photons.



Just in the past few minutes here's some of the reading I've found on warp drives....

quote:

Mass–energy requirement
If certain quantum inequalities conjectured by Ford and Roman hold,[16] then the energy requirements for some warp drives may be unfeasibly large as well as negative. For example, the energy equivalent of -1064 kg might be required[17] to transport a small spaceship across the Milky Way galaxy—an amount orders of magnitude greater than the estimated mass of the observable universe. Counterarguments to these apparent problems have also been offered.[1]

Chris Van den Broeck of the Catholic University of Louvain in Belgium, in 1999, tried to address the potential issues.[18] By contracting the 3+1-dimensional surface area of the bubble being transported by the drive, while at the same time expanding the three-dimensional volume contained inside, Van den Broeck was able to reduce the total energy needed to transport small atoms to less than three solar masses. Later, by slightly modifying the Van den Broeck metric, Serguei Krasnikov reduced the necessary total amount of negative mass to a few milligrams.[1][13]

In 2012, physicist Harold White and collaborators announced that modifying the geometry of exotic matter could reduce the mass–energy requirements for a macroscopic space ship from the equivalent of the planet Jupiter to that of the Voyager 1 spacecraft (~700 kg)[5] or less,[19] and stated their intent to perform small-scale experiments in constructing warp fields.[5] White proposed changing the shape of the warp bubble from a sphere to a doughnut shape.[20] Furthermore, if the intensity of the space warp can be oscillated over time, the energy required is reduced even more.[5] According to White, a modified Michelson–Morley interferometer could test the idea: one of the legs of the interferometer would appear to be a slightly different length when the test devices were energised.[19]



quote:

Placement of matter
Krasnikov proposed that if tachyonic matter cannot be found or used, then a solution might be to arrange for masses along the path of the vessel to be set in motion in such a way that the required field was produced. But in this case, the Alcubierre drive vessel can only travel routes that, like a railroad, have first been equipped with the necessary infrastructure. The pilot inside the bubble is causally disconnected with its walls and cannot carry out any action outside the bubble: the bubble cannot be used for the first trip to a distant star because the pilot cannot place infrastructure ahead of the bubble while "in transit". For example, travelling to Vega (which is 25 light-years from the Earth) requires arranging everything so that the bubble moving toward Vega with a superluminal velocity would appear; such arrangements will always take more than 25 years.[9]

Coule has argued that schemes, such as the one proposed by Alcubierre, are infeasible because matter placed en route of the intended path of a craft must be placed at superluminal speed—that constructing an Alcubierre drive requires an Alcubierre drive even if the metric that allows it is physically meaningful. Coule further argues that an analogous objection will apply to any proposed method of constructing an Alcubierre drive.


quote:

Survivability inside the bubble
A paper by José Natário published in 2002 argues that crew members could not control, steer or stop the ship because the ship could not send signals to the front of the bubble.[21]

A more recent paper by Carlos Barceló, Stefano Finazzi, and Stefano Liberati uses quantum theory to argue that the Alcubierre drive at faster-than-light velocities is impossible mostly because extremely high temperatures caused by Hawking radiation would destroy anything inside the bubble at superluminal velocities and destabilize the bubble itself; the paper also argues that these problems are absent if the bubble velocity is subluminal, although the drive still requires exotic matter


quote:

Damaging effect on destination
Brendan McMonigal, Geraint F. Lewis, and Philip O'Byrne have argued that when an Alcubierre-driven ship decelerates from superluminal speed, the particles that its bubble has gathered in transit would be released in energetic outbursts akin to a sonic boom shockwave; in the case of forward-facing particles, energetic enough to destroy anything at the destination directly in front of the ship


quote:

Wall thickness
The amount of negative energy required for such a propulsion is not yet known. Pfenning and Allen Everett of Tufts hold that a warp bubble traveling at 10 times light-speed must have a wall thickness of no more than 10-32 meters—close to the limiting Planck length, 1.6 × 10-35 meters. A bubble macroscopically large enough to enclose a ship of 200 meters would require a total amount of exotic matter equal to 10 billion times the mass of the observable universe, and straining the exotic matter to an extremely thin band of 10-32 meters is considered impractical. Similar constraints apply to Krasnikov's superluminal subway. Chris Van den Broeck recently constructed a modification of Alcubierre's model which requires much less exotic matter but places the ship in a curved space-time "bottle" whose neck is about 10-32 meters. So-called cosmic strings, hypothesized in some cosmological theories, involve very large energy densities in long, narrow lines, but[clarification needed] all known physically reasonable cosmic-string models have positive (positive space-time warping effects) energy densities. These results seem to make it rather unlikely that one could construct Alcubierre warp drives using exotic matter generated by quantum effects.



All this from the Alcubierre Drive thatworks by....

quote:

Rather than exceeding the speed of light within its local frame of reference, a spacecraft would traverse distances by contracting space in front of it and expanding space behind it, resulting in effective faster-than-light travel.



Posted by Napoleon
Kenna
Member since Dec 2007
73175 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:01 am to
quote:

I love how we cannot have a civilized debate without the little downvote game starting.


I think this time it's more based on your certainty that the tech is impossible based on opinions you have gathered. More than who you are.

Posted by Wtodd
Tampa, FL
Member since Oct 2013
68471 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:01 am to
quote:

I love how we cannot have a civilized debate without the little downvote game starting

Thanks for the reminder..downvoted
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
94752 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:02 am to
quote:

Aren't black holes real life examples of the bending of space-time?


Meh - as much of that is conjecture - a little more solid than hypothesized tachyons, but still - minimal direct observation - we know more about what's going on around the "black holes" than the phenomena themselves.

Gravity is gravity, no matter how extreme. The key to all of this - I predict, is some kind of engineered control over mass and gravity - perhaps by figuring out the Higgs-Bosun, perhaps by other means.

E=MC2 - still good science for this proposition.
This post was edited on 4/8/14 at 11:03 am
Posted by Cs
Member since Aug 2008
10675 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:03 am to
quote:

and even if we were able to travel at light speed we would not be able to reach another inhabitable planet in anything close to a human lifetime.


If we were able to travel close to the speed of light, we would be able to travel anywhere almost instantly.

Due to the effects of time dilation, the individuals present on the vessel traveling near light speed wouldn't experience a discernible passage of time.
This post was edited on 4/8/14 at 11:06 am
Posted by notsince98
KC, MO
Member since Oct 2012
21337 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:04 am to
as you can see, most agree the energy source is key. High density energy source is a must and well beyond what we are currently capable of.

The rest of it is just simple engineering and time.
Posted by Darth_Vader
A galaxy far, far away
Member since Dec 2011
72134 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:04 am to
quote:

I think this time it's more based on your certainty that the tech is impossible based on opinions you have gathered. More than who you are.


I'm stating my opinion and defending it just as you are yours. How are you doing anything different than I am? The only difference is when you post something I actually post a real counter argument, you just downvote and say I'm wrong.
Posted by DanTiger
Somewhere in Luziana
Member since Sep 2004
9480 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:05 am to
quote:

If we were able to travel close to the speed of light, we would be able to travel anywhere almost instantly.


Not true. The universe is a vast place.

quote:

Due to the effects of time dilation, the individuals present on the vessel traveling at close to light speed wouldn't experience a discernible passage of time.


Those on Earth would, however.
Posted by colorchangintiger
Dan Carlin
Member since Nov 2005
30979 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:06 am to
nihling d-sinks are around the corner brah.
Posted by notsince98
KC, MO
Member since Oct 2012
21337 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:06 am to
quote:

Those on Earth would, however.


Which is irrelevant.
Posted by Mahootney
Lovin' My German Footprint
Member since Sep 2008
12122 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:07 am to
quote:

Even with that, that assumes a brute force propulsion as the only form of space travel. With the alien activity that has been present on this planet for thousands of years, there is obviously a solution to this problem and it is probably a more elegant design than just pushing an object to the speed of light.
I postulate that we don't fully understand energy physics.
We're still discovering matter/anti-matter relationships. We're barely touching on quantum particles like the Higgs-Boson, and there are other areas of energy physics that we aren't even exploring.
Think about it.... we've only really been serious about this whole energy adventure for ~200 years.

The basis of my hypothesis is the inability to adequately rectify the differences between macro and quantum physics. I believe it's because we have incomplete or flawed fundamental equations.

We've convinced ourselves that we've got it right, and therefore aren't able to progress in any other direction than the one we're currently following.

What makes Einstein right? He was just a man... not a god. He capitalized on others' reasearch, but who is to say that he fully understood it... or that he didn't miss vital components when crafting his theory.

Einstein proposes C as a limit, but really... it is a constant (which was actually proposed by maxwell as the conversion factor between electrostatic and electromagnetic fields).
Einstein used Maxwell's research as a basis for relativity, but he may have misunderstood or failed to fully value the concept of C. He correctly extrapolated the speed of transverse waves, but completely ignored the electrostatic component of Maxwell's research (which is 1/2 of the whole puzzle).

To further prove that the speed of light is not the final limit of directional travel [(v=pi/2*c) scalar wave travel = 292,830 miles/sec.... vs transverse (aka the speed of light) = 186,282 miles/sec], you can look into Nikola Tesla's work regarding using high-frequency, high-voltage, harmonic, longitudinal waves and earth as a dielectric, which experimentally proved wave propogation faster than C. (Tesla's experimental work uncovered several phenomenon, which at the time were unexplainable. Later, the discovery of the earth's ionosphere and the realization that earth is an insulated body vindicated the research.)

As such, Einstein is neglecting the electro-static components in his mathmatics, which on the macro scale is negiligible. However, the miscalculations regarding momentum of the electromagnetic field (and presumption that it's only mass that has an effect on speed/energy... and that C is a limit rather than a constant) prevent the theories from being transferred to the quantum scale.... and therefore limiting/delaying our advancement.


PS: There are several theories about cosmic energy generation that intrigue me.
One theory is that the sun is not visible in outer space. The implications are tremendous. It would mean that the energy we see here on earth is actually in a degraded state from its pure form.
Could we develop means of transportation from the higher, pure energy available in the black body of space?
Is the sun really a fusion generator? ... Or is it more like an energy transformer?

As soon as you believe that you are smart enough to have it all figured out, you eliminate the possibility of discovery outside of your focused perspective (B/c you eliminate other options with your own prejudices).


One of the main reasons that an Einstein-Rosen bridge is considered impossible is due to the energy requirement to maintain the worm hole through space time.
What if the energy requirement calculations are incorrect or that our understanding of energy quantity/availability are incorrect?
-- The possibility of instantaneous space-time travel would become possible.
Posted by willymeaux
Member since Mar 2012
4877 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:07 am to
light speed
Posted by Mizzoufan26
Vacaville CA
Member since Sep 2012
18965 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:10 am to
quote:

Due to the effects of time dilation, the individuals present on the vessel traveling near light speed wouldn't experience a discernible passage of time.


So to them it would seem to be instant?
Posted by DanTiger
Somewhere in Luziana
Member since Sep 2004
9480 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:11 am to
quote:

Which is irrelevant.


I believe it is relevant but that is neither here nor there. I do believe we are an immeasurably long way from possibly traveling at the speed of light if that is even possible. We all know that in order to travel at the spoeed of light one must become light. I am not saying this is impossible but I don't believe it to be possible. I simply have a theory that life doesn't last long enough to allow us to master travel throughout the universe. I believe that our human nature makes us want to believe this is possible just as we believed we were the center of our solar system and the universe for most of our existence. I also could be VERY wrong.
Posted by Napoleon
Kenna
Member since Dec 2007
73175 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:11 am to
quote:

you just downvote and say I'm wrong.


I didn't. I don't pay attention to that shite. It's useless IMO.

The onlytime I ever downvote is when someone makes a deal of it.


Your opinion is it's impossible, my opinion is it's only impossible based on our current understanding of the laws of physics.

Posted by notsince98
KC, MO
Member since Oct 2012
21337 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:12 am to
I agree with you almost completely.
Posted by notsince98
KC, MO
Member since Oct 2012
21337 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:13 am to
quote:

I believe it is relevant but that is neither here nor there. I do believe we are an immeasurably long way from possibly traveling at the speed of light if that is even possible. We all know that in order to travel at the spoeed of light one must become light. I am not saying this is impossible but I don't believe it to be possible. I simply have a theory that life doesn't last long enough to allow us to master travel throughout the universe. I believe that our human nature makes us want to believe this is possible just as we believed we were the center of our solar system and the universe for most of our existence. I also could be VERY wrong.


Assuming traveling at the speed of light is the goal (I don't agree), you'd still be incorrect. You don't have to become light to travel at that speed. You have to find a way to manipulate the effects of mass.
Posted by Hooligan's Ghost
Member since Jul 2013
5673 posts
Posted on 4/8/14 at 11:14 am to
could global warming on Earth heat up Mars and could Pecan Island tip over?
This post was edited on 4/8/14 at 11:16 am
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