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re: Due to patient - doctor confidentiality we will never know what.....

Posted on 8/5/19 at 8:55 am to
Posted by Jake88
Member since Apr 2005
80823 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 8:55 am to
I'm still going to disagree. Try treating depression or mania with a benzodiazepine alone. It's not going to work.
Posted by EarlyCuyler3
Appalachia
Member since Nov 2017
27290 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 8:56 am to
Oh I'm not suggesting that at all. They wont work like that of course. All I'm saying is that they can be extremely dangerous and more often than not, moreso than your typical antidepressants.
Posted by League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
10340 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 8:58 am to
quote:

Those studies don't speak to what op is suggesting. They don't refute what TH was posting.

He specifically said 'don't blame the treatment'. Yet study after study has said the medication does cause a certain percentage to become angry, aggressive, and manic. Those kids were then dropped from that treatment??? With one study concluding, 'yes, the treatment was what caused the mania'.
Posted by Jake88
Member since Apr 2005
80823 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:00 am to
They cause a physical dependence far worse than SSRIs and sudden withdrawal can cause death. But, I wouldn't call them mood altering, rather anxiolytic.
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
91871 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:01 am to
Most studies also conclude the trade off is worth it, as mania is easier on the individual than depression. Worth noting.
Posted by EarlyCuyler3
Appalachia
Member since Nov 2017
27290 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:02 am to
quote:

But, I wouldn't call them mood altering


Having taken them myself, I certain would.
Posted by Jake88
Member since Apr 2005
80823 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:03 am to
Now, you have to see how many shooters were in a med induced manic state at the time of their act to refute what he said.

Posted by TH03
Mogadishu
Member since Dec 2008
172004 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:03 am to
quote:

cause a certain percentage to become angry, aggressive, and manic. Those kids were then dropped from that treatment??? With one study concluding, 'yes, the treatment was what caused the mania'.


So they went on to become mass shooters right?
Posted by TH03
Mogadishu
Member since Dec 2008
172004 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:04 am to
Having taken an absolute frick ton of Xanax back in the day, I can say it ain't mood altering.
Posted by SlidellCajun
Slidell la
Member since May 2019
16886 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:05 am to
Very good points...

There is a causal connection between these incidents and the use of certain drugs- mostly antidepressants.

Taken by a person with some sort of anger issue, they can numb the sensitivity to pain and lead an unstable, angry person to go on a rampage.

I personally think that there ought to be a question on the background check about whether or not a person is taking anti-depressants. It’s that relevant
This post was edited on 8/5/19 at 9:13 am
Posted by Jake88
Member since Apr 2005
80823 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:05 am to
Why would you be treated solely with benzos?
Posted by tgrbaitn08
Member since Dec 2007
148031 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:08 am to
quote:

Having taken an absolute frick ton of Xanax back in the day, I can say it ain't mood altering.



they most certainly are. they can can cause mood swings, which is mood altering
Posted by League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
10340 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:11 am to
quote:

Most studies also conclude the trade off is worth it, as mania is easier on the individual than depression. Worth noting.

Two things of note:

1) You are advocating for the greater good of the individual over that of society.

2) The reason we have seen a jump in these shootings since 1980 is the attack on institutionalization that released the most severely ill among us into society on a daily basis
quote:

The modern deinstitutionalization movement was made possible by the discovery of psychiatric drugs in the late-20th century

The Dayton killer was expelled from high school for having a hit list. Was his daily freedom really worth trusting whatever treatment he may/may not have been getting?
Posted by TH03
Mogadishu
Member since Dec 2008
172004 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:12 am to
quote:

they can can cause mood swings, which is mood altering


These are only really common in Xanax abuse. Abuse/addiction mood swings happen all the time. Doesn't mean the substance is mood altering.
Posted by TH03
Mogadishu
Member since Dec 2008
172004 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:14 am to
quote:

2) The reason we have seen a jump in these shootings since 1980 is the attack on institutionalization that released the most severely ill among us into society on a daily basis


I can get behind this, but you're arguing that the treatment of individuals is causing manic states that lead to these shootings while simultaneously saying ending the treatment of these people caused the uptick in shootings.

Should we treat them or not?
Posted by League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
10340 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:14 am to
quote:

So they went on to become mass shooters right?

uh, what part of 'they were dropped from treatment' got past you? And it was the clinical study that concluded the treatment was the cause of the mania, so …
Posted by TH03
Mogadishu
Member since Dec 2008
172004 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:17 am to
So no?
Posted by tgrbaitn08
Member since Dec 2007
148031 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:17 am to
quote:

Doesn't mean the substance is mood altering.


When I'm about to punch holes the the walls of my house because my kids are driving me crazy, a xanax will usually calm me down to a point where I'll only kick the dog
Posted by League Champs
Bayou Self
Member since Oct 2012
10340 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:18 am to
quote:

while simultaneously saying ending the treatment of these people caused the uptick in shootings.

No one I know of suggested this. Being on the medication created the mania, not getting off of it.

In fact, those given on a placebo only registered 0% manic episodes, across many studies.
Posted by Jake88
Member since Apr 2005
80823 posts
Posted on 8/5/19 at 9:19 am to
quote:

The Dayton killer was expelled from high school for having a hit list. Was his daily freedom really worth trusting whatever treatment he may/may not have been getting?

Law enforcement could have done something about this, no? Then a background check would have caught this.

How long should he be institutionalized? What happens when you say you don't think trannys should be reading to kids in libraries and someone labels you a dangerous extremist? Off to the institution.
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