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Posted on 5/12/18 at 3:13 am to Masterag
quote:
To have morality, you have to have a christian god or something close to it.
No. That isn't morality. That's authority.
quote:
So if there isnt an almighty god who judges from above, how can you determine what is good and what is evil?
Society does that.
quote:
It’s all subjective.
That's what we have and the existence of a god or gods wouldn't change that.
Posted on 5/12/18 at 7:12 am to TH03
quote:
The empty pedestal at ____ circle says otherwise.
It's still Lee Circle.
They could have changed a few street signs for $100 and let the statue languish in obscurity, but instead they spent a fortune on the statue and left the name.
Posted on 5/12/18 at 8:20 am to Masterag
quote:
E.g. would the act of killing hitler as a child be a net moral good or absolutely immoral act.
Net moral good, but it's lazy. Can you fix him/get him some psychological help? Is the only choice "let him live" or "kill him"? Because the world just doesn't work like this so why would silly hypotheticals work like that?
Posted on 5/12/18 at 8:37 am to Masterag
quote:
Do you believe in moral relativity or absolutism?
No. Philosophy is dead. New information comes from science. You don’t have to believe, just observe.
Posted on 5/12/18 at 8:45 am to Kentucker
quote:
No. Philosophy is dead. New information comes from science. You don’t have to believe, just observe.
Posted on 5/12/18 at 8:59 am to Masterag
quote:
E.g. would the act of killing hitler as a child be a net moral good or absolutely immoral act
I think in the surface it seems like a net moral good.
Killing Hitler before he rose to power would seemingly stop WWII. Would prevent concentration camps and save 6 million Jews and 10s of millions more lives lost in the war.
But.....
Would the alternative have been worse? The medical and scientific advancements made during that time due in large part to the war have gone on to save probably hundreds of millions of lives.
Many of us on this message board today would not be here without Hitler and the results of his actions.
And one can argue that without Hitler and Nazi Germany we still would have ended up in a world war, this one against Stalin and the Soviet Union which may have been incredibly more costly in terms of lives lost and we may not have won.
None of this is to suggest anything g Hitler did was good, he was pure evil.
But when thinking of weather it is moral to go back and kill him before he did what he did, you have to consider unintended consequences that may have ultimately led us down an even worse path.
This post was edited on 5/12/18 at 9:00 am
Posted on 5/12/18 at 9:14 am to airfernando
quote:quote:
Yeah slavery sucked and all, but without it, I wouldn't be here.
That is an assumption
Not only is it an assumption, I don’t think it’s particularly relevant.
The fact that the descendants of slaves would end up living in equality (relative to their ancestors) with the descendants of slave owners was a completely unintended consequence of the institution of slavery. Proponents of slavery didn’t exactly want this to happen, so to say that the existence of black Americans says anything about the morality of slavery is just wrong IMO.
It’s like saying, “Thank God people murder each other so crime scene investigators can have a job”.
Posted on 5/12/18 at 9:21 am to Masterag
"Moral relativity" is just a convoluted way of saying "amoral".
There is no such thing as moral relativity. There is such a thing as wisdom.
There is no such thing as moral relativity. There is such a thing as wisdom.
Posted on 5/12/18 at 9:35 am to Masterag
To paint people like Hitler as bad vs good is dangerous. Hitler was vaulted to power by the class war. Germans were starving. They wanted food, work, etc. Killing him pre WW1 would not have solved this problem.
This post was edited on 5/12/18 at 9:36 am
Posted on 5/12/18 at 9:44 am to Masterag
Everyone wants to be a tiger till it's time to do tiger things!
Posted on 5/12/18 at 10:49 am to NyCaLa
quote:
Moral relativity" is just a convoluted way of saying "amoral".
There is no such thing as moral relativity. There is such a thing as wisdom.
Not really. The very act of asking whether or not an action is immoral disproves your amoral posit.
Posted on 5/12/18 at 11:51 am to Argonaut
I think everyone mistook my arguments as me being against atheism. I think moral absolutism is stupid, I’m not trying to say anything about the moral fiber of atheists.
So it’s one opinion vs the other. You cant have moral absolutism without a higher power like a christian god. Example: abortion. Id say there’s a pretty big split on the morality of that issue.
Once again, I’m saying moral absolutism is flawed because it relies on a higher power.
quote:
Society does that
So it’s one opinion vs the other. You cant have moral absolutism without a higher power like a christian god. Example: abortion. Id say there’s a pretty big split on the morality of that issue.
Once again, I’m saying moral absolutism is flawed because it relies on a higher power.
Posted on 5/12/18 at 12:01 pm to memphis tiger
quote:
One can be an atheist and still have a good sense of right and wrong.
But does that morality come from being raised in a society that had its morals developed by centuries of religious thinking of whatever kind?
Posted on 5/12/18 at 12:23 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
But does that morality come from being raised in a society that had its morals developed by centuries of religious thinking of whatever kind?
I think we’ve developed a good moral society and values despite religion, not because of it. But what we have to be careful of is to not ignore immoral actions because it is not considered tolerant to do so.
It is immoral to stone gay people, even though the Bible commands us to do so. Likewise, we have a duty to speak out when others, like fundamentalist Muslims, take their doctrine for its word and commit atrocities
Posted on 5/12/18 at 12:31 pm to Masterag
quote:
It is immoral to stone gay people, even though the Bible commands us to do so.
The Bible also says thou shall not kill
And I’m not trying to argue that morality is dependent on religion. I’m not big on religion. I just think you have a steep hill to climb if you want to prove that a world which developed almost exclusively with religion is not responsible for its moral beliefs today.
Even though the Bible (some aspects) is not the most current source of moral thinking doesn’t mean it hasn’t had a role in progressing morality in the past
Posted on 5/12/18 at 12:35 pm to WaWaWeeWa
And this says nothing about if religion is true. Religion could be a completely human construct in which case we did develop morality ourselves
I think the real argument we are having is...
What is responsible for morality? a supernatural power (god) OR man (with or without the human construct of religion)
If you accept that this is the argument then it really boils down to the penultimate question, one which we can’t answer, “does god exist”?
I think the real argument we are having is...
What is responsible for morality? a supernatural power (god) OR man (with or without the human construct of religion)
If you accept that this is the argument then it really boils down to the penultimate question, one which we can’t answer, “does god exist”?
Posted on 5/12/18 at 1:15 pm to WaWaWeeWa
Yeah, I agree somewhat. I think you have positive and then negative returns with respect to the role religion has played in morality.
Posted on 5/12/18 at 2:03 pm to Masterag
King of Queens had a funny line about going back and shooting baby Hitler.
Posted on 5/12/18 at 2:41 pm to Masterag
relative absolutism
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