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Message
re: Derek Chauvin trial - GUILTY ON ALL CHARGES. Update: His sentencing is today
Posted on 4/10/21 at 11:48 am to LightMerchant
Posted on 4/10/21 at 11:48 am to LightMerchant
quote:
But forensically, cause of death was subdual and restraint by law enforcement, per the ME.
Wrong.
The cause of death is cardiopulmonary arrest complicating subdual, restraint, and neck compression by law enforcement
Big difference from your statement. In layman’s terms, the stress of being subdued was too much for his compromised heart with drugs in his system.
1
Posted on 4/10/21 at 11:52 am to theenemy
quote:
I disagree. I don't think what he did rose to criminal negligence or intent.
I agree it is still a stretch.
If the MN manslaughter standard is negligence in creating "an unreasonable risk" and "consciously (taking) chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another."
He for certain would be consciously taking chances as he has basic medical training AND became aware the subject was unresponsive.
Was it an unreasonable risk? Given they have photos of them training using that technique AND as far as I have heard no other person has died from using it, I am not certain you could say the risk taken was unreasonable. With this caveat...once they knew he was unresponsive, the risk could certainly be deemed as unreasonable. While he was fighting and resisting..certainly not.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 12:01 pm to RealDawg
quote:
consciously taking chances as he has basic medical training AND became aware the subject was unresponsive.
Probably correct. I suspect this is where the jury ends up. A jury verdict is often a compromise. When they begin deliberations some will want the higher charges, others no charges. Others will be pliable to whatever. In order to reach a unanimous verdict some ground will have to be given by the factions and this seems most likely to me in light of the pressure. Unfair really as a jury shouldn’t be swayed by outside forces, but that’s how I see it coming down.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 12:28 pm to theenemy
quote:
Also, the ME determination is only an opinion....it is not a fact in criminal court.
Yes, opinion. Professional opinion and the official cause of death on record. An official determination, or that is my understanding. I’m often wrong. Tell me if you know that to be wrong. It was hard to find anything in a search specific to that.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 12:32 pm to Gamera
quote:
A jury verdict is often a compromise
Agree. This is where the third-degree murder charge hurts Chauvin more. It gives the jury three options and somehow feeling like the third is an even bigger compromise.
It should be based on the evidence and standards of each charge but that isn't the way it happens in real life.
A long way to go on the evidence. I think they are going to be hard pressed to say there was anything but negligence involved and really hard to prove even that caused the death. Based on all the other medical/drug factors, how long Floyd was full responsive in that position..you couldn't sway me on a jury that the officer was responsible. I do believe he was negligent in not reacting once Floyd was unresponsive. Once you have somebody in that position, you are in control of their life.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 12:36 pm to WaWaWeeWa
quote:
Wrong. The cause of death is cardiopulmonary arrest complicating subdual, restraint, and neck compression by law enforcement
For the purpose of rebutting the poster, it was correct. Meaning, the poster said that the ME finding of homicide could have meant anyone, the drug dealer included, and ME never said police.
My only purpose with the quote was to show that the ME isn’t saying someone committed homicide and I have no idea who that was. We know “law enforcement subdual and restraint” excludes the drug dealer.
The statement correctly has the homicide due to law enforcement action ( sub & restraint ).
Posted on 4/10/21 at 12:39 pm to LightMerchant
Compared to the shite-show that is Twitter, it is nice to be able to have discussions, at length.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks for having me.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 2:20 pm to LightMerchant
quote:
Professional opinion and the official cause of death on record.
It's an expert opinion hence why it is admissible. It is the official cause outside of criminal court for statistical purposes.
The defense will also be allowed to present an expert opinion that can disagree with the ME's opinion.
Neither opinion is "official" in criminal court. The jury will determine which opinion they accept.
But there is no "official" determination in criminal court...just opinions that the jury will contemplate.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 2:59 pm to RealDawg
quote:
I do believe he was negligent in not reacting once Floyd was unresponsive. Once you have somebody in that position, you are in control of their life.
That’s where I get twisted up in this situation too. I watched the full body cam and Floyd was freaking out the whole time and I don’t know what else the officer really could have done differently until THAT point. It’s like he just watched him fizzle out and didn’t really care about it. I don’t know how else to say it but it seem like he could have tried to change the inevitable outcome which was Floyd’s death.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:07 pm to supadave3
quote:
That’s where I get twisted up in this situation too. I watched the full body cam and Floyd was freaking out the whole time and I don’t know what else the officer really could have done differently until THAT point. It’s like he just watched him fizzle out and didn’t really care about it. I don’t know how else to say it but it seem like he could have tried to change the inevitable outcome which was Floyd’s death.
This so the grey among the so called black and white.
Medical was in front of him so maybe he didn’t act because they were on site? Maybe he thought he was just passed out and he was skilled at checking a pulse? Maybe he was caught up with the crowd and numb after all the struggle? It wasn’t a long period of time but long enough that I would believe he was negligent in reacting. Then it comes down to whether the knee was truly a contributing factor or whether he was simply negligent in trying to save a life.
*no chance in hell I would want to be a cop.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:11 pm to supadave3
quote:
Floyd was freaking out the whole time and I don’t know what else the officer really could have done differently until THAT point.
While he was holding a struggling, screaming, behemoth, he should have gone to med school so he could tell that the fried foods, ribs, and pork chops, combined with lethal levels of a drug cocktail, were taking GF toward the bright light.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:15 pm to supadave3
I mean, chauvin doesnt know what he took, if he has aids or other transmittable diseases and y'all are acting like he should have acted like an emergency room doctor and cut him open.
Truth is, there isnt anything anyone could have done. That dude was dead the second he swallowed all that shite.
Truth is, there isnt anything anyone could have done. That dude was dead the second he swallowed all that shite.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:20 pm to theenemy
quote:
But there is no "official" determination in criminal court...just opinions that the jury will contemplate.
Is the death certificate an “official” document? If it is, is not the finding on the death certificate as to cause of death the “official” finding?
I don’t know. I’m asking.
This post was edited on 4/10/21 at 3:21 pm
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:20 pm to kengel2
While I do agree, there is also no reason to suspect he was going to run away, and no reason to force him on the ground. GF was neutralized and the situation was over when he was setting on the wall 10 mins before. For a counterfeit bill, the police could have rectified this situation better.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:24 pm to AUCE05
quote:
no reason to force him on the ground. GF was neutralized and the situation was over when he was setting on the wall 10 mins before.
They didnt force him on the ground. They had him sitting on the ground. Then he bitched. So they tried to put him in the car, then he bitched and fought. So they put him on the ground because he was claustriphobic and couldn't breathe. They accomodated him way more than they should have.
If they would have just put him in the car and left, he might have been alright. But he fought that.
quote:
For a counterfeit bill, the police could have rectified this situation better.
And george floyd could have just done his duty as a a citizen and accepted his day in court.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:26 pm to kengel2
When he was removed from his car, the two cops put him against the wall and told him to set. He did. They then walked him to the police car and mentioned he was foaming at the mouth. They should have left him on at the wall and called the medics.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:32 pm to AUCE05
We’ll never know for certain what was in Chauvin’s mind at the time, why he did not come off Floyd when others were imploring him to and Floyd had gone limp.
I speculated passive-aggression. ( not well-received here ). A possibility is that he was “teaching Floyd a lesson”. Maybe it pissed him off royally that Floyd resisted as he did and made what could have been rather easy into something difficult. Speculation. But it would only be human nature and would not be an unexpected reaction. Anger that the individual resisted as they did is often a factor in cases of police abuse. When I watch videos of people resisting and being combative with police it pisses me off. Often to where I am wishing the cops would wail on the person and show them who is boss.
I speculated passive-aggression. ( not well-received here ). A possibility is that he was “teaching Floyd a lesson”. Maybe it pissed him off royally that Floyd resisted as he did and made what could have been rather easy into something difficult. Speculation. But it would only be human nature and would not be an unexpected reaction. Anger that the individual resisted as they did is often a factor in cases of police abuse. When I watch videos of people resisting and being combative with police it pisses me off. Often to where I am wishing the cops would wail on the person and show them who is boss.
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:34 pm to AUCE05
quote:
They then walked him to the police car and mentioned he was foaming at the mouth. They should have left him on at the wall and called the medics.
You mean at the point he started being combative, they should have just let him be?
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:34 pm to Hangit
quote:
While he was holding a struggling, screaming, behemoth, he should have gone to med school so he could tell that the fried foods, ribs, and pork chops, combined with lethal levels of a drug cocktail, were taking GF toward the bright ligh
I’m not going to defend my position because I don’t know what else he should have done and even stated that I thought Floyd’s death was the inevitable outcome. I was just stating that it seems like he could have tried something, his nonchalantness was callous and is uncomfortable, at the very least. A guy under his control was dying. I’m not convicting the officer and I probably should have stayed out this conversation.
It’s an interesting and disturbing case. I don’t envy anyone involved, not the cops involved, not the jury, and certainly not George Floyd. This is going to end very messy for everyone.
This post was edited on 4/10/21 at 4:20 pm
Posted on 4/10/21 at 3:35 pm to supadave3
quote:
That’s where I get twisted up in this situation too. I watched the full body cam and Floyd was freaking out the whole time and I don’t know what else the officer really could have done differently until THAT point. It’s like he just watched him fizzle out and didn’t really care about it. I don’t know how else to say it but it seem like he could have tried to change the inevitable outcome which was Floyd’s death.
This is a difficult situation.
Graham v Conor dictates that you cannot use hindsight and you have to judge it from the officers perception...which can be difficult.
So you have to look at it from Chauvin's eyes.
I think it is reasonable to say Chauvin made the mistake of not rolling him on his side...but under Graham v. Conor is that enough criminally?
Graham v. Conor also allows for officers to make mistakes due to the court recognizing that officers are making split second decisions in stressful situations.
I think you also can say due to all the complications in that situation, such as:
-floyds size and resistance
-floyds drug use
-floyds medical issues
-the hostility and distraction of the crowd
it is reasonable that the police made mistakes.
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