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Message
re: Climate Change is Cause of Wildfires, per NWF
Posted on 9/11/16 at 6:27 pm to Cowboyfan89
Posted on 9/11/16 at 6:27 pm to Cowboyfan89
quote:
ows burning is good. Most wildlife and forest agencies were still against it half way through the 20th century. The southeast, with its ever-growing acreage of longleaf pine, is really the first region of the country to actively embrace fire as a management tool. Most timber managers still don't like it, but that attitude seems to be changing with more and more education on the benefits of prescribed fire.
Well...you can't have longleaf without fire, they wouldn't get past the "grass stage" without a burn.
Posted on 9/11/16 at 6:33 pm to Sasquatch Smash
And I'm not suggesting that they are, but the fact is, NWF is pushing an agenda, citing climate change as the cause for increasing wildfires. They are ignoring the fact that California has a history of poor forest management because it is convenient for them to do so. All one has to do is look at that quote with their cited causes of increased wildfires. No mention of management practices.
Ron and PC: that is part of my point. If you aren't going to allow natural burns to take place periodically, you have to use prescribed burns. If you do neither, you get these out of control burns.
Ron and PC: that is part of my point. If you aren't going to allow natural burns to take place periodically, you have to use prescribed burns. If you do neither, you get these out of control burns.
This post was edited on 9/11/16 at 6:38 pm
Posted on 9/11/16 at 6:36 pm to Sasquatch Smash
I used to believe that, but I've seen longleaf get to the bottle brush stage without fire. The thing is, it had no other competition and took a lot longer. The fire just reduces competition for the young longleaf.
This post was edited on 9/11/16 at 6:37 pm
Posted on 9/11/16 at 6:46 pm to Cowboyfan89
Upper and lower level winds, really low humidity, and poor forestry practices are what makes prescribed burning in CA impossible. The climate factors make it very hard to control unless you burn very small areas at a time, and burning everything at that rate just doesn't work.
The only way it would work is if they were allowed to cut properly and could burn every 6 months to a year (idk how fast stuff grows over there, just going off yaupon here).
I have burned and observed burns a fair amount, and always notify the local forestry and fire departments and take multiple measurements on site. That is after the site has been prepped by a dozer. shite can get out of hand very quickly, and it is a PITA to stop when it does. It is hard enough doing it in the hills of Mississippi. Can't imagine doing it in California.
The only way it would work is if they were allowed to cut properly and could burn every 6 months to a year (idk how fast stuff grows over there, just going off yaupon here).
I have burned and observed burns a fair amount, and always notify the local forestry and fire departments and take multiple measurements on site. That is after the site has been prepped by a dozer. shite can get out of hand very quickly, and it is a PITA to stop when it does. It is hard enough doing it in the hills of Mississippi. Can't imagine doing it in California.
quote:They blow up after you burn the area. Pretty crazy how fast they grow. You can also spray, but it doesn't work as well from what I've seen
I used to believe that, but I've seen longleaf get to the bottle brush stage without fire
This post was edited on 9/11/16 at 6:48 pm
Posted on 9/11/16 at 6:56 pm to Hammertime
Good points.
I have a friend that used to work for the forest service in California. Those factors don't seem to have anything to do with their lack of burning. In fact, she said the California agency active spreads false information on why they promote certain fire management practices, mainly suppression through removal of certain vegetation communities.
Basically, their idea of fire suppression is to just clear the plant communities that are most susceptible to fire.
I have a friend that used to work for the forest service in California. Those factors don't seem to have anything to do with their lack of burning. In fact, she said the California agency active spreads false information on why they promote certain fire management practices, mainly suppression through removal of certain vegetation communities.
Basically, their idea of fire suppression is to just clear the plant communities that are most susceptible to fire.
This post was edited on 9/11/16 at 7:03 pm
Posted on 9/11/16 at 7:19 pm to Cowboyfan89
That's just too labor intensive to be worth a damn. They either change their species makeup to create more canopy, or cut and start a program that's worth a damn.
At this point, they are overwhelmed and fricked themselves. Without someone there who knows what they're doing, wildfires will continue
At this point, they are overwhelmed and fricked themselves. Without someone there who knows what they're doing, wildfires will continue
Posted on 9/11/16 at 7:21 pm to PerCuriam
I love how you hillbillies who've never set foot in CA know how it is out here.
It doesn't rain from April tHrough November. Hard to manage a prescribed burn when it's almost always dry AF.
It doesn't rain from April tHrough November. Hard to manage a prescribed burn when it's almost always dry AF.
Posted on 9/11/16 at 7:26 pm to Cowboyfan89
quote:
I used to believe that, but I've seen longleaf get to the bottle brush stage without fire. The thing is, it had no other competition and took a lot longer. The fire just reduces competition for the young longleaf.
Hmm. That's interesting, but I suppose it makes sense. But doesn't the fire, burning off/singeing the grass-stage needles, provide a cue to the young tree to start growing more?
Posted on 9/11/16 at 7:29 pm to Sasquatch Smash
Eh, good question. I guess that is the common knowledge. Not sure how to explain it, but like I said, it takes a hell of a lot longer for it to get out of the grass stage.
Posted on 9/11/16 at 7:34 pm to Mung
quote:
I love how you hillbillies who've never set foot in CA know how it is out here.
It doesn't rain from April tHrough November. Hard to manage a prescribed burn when it's almost always dry AF.
So either you believe climate change has drastically altered the rain patterns in CA, or you don't believe that fire regularly ran through those ecosystems. Which is it?
Those systems functioned perfectly fine with fire centuries ago, before Europeans populated the area.
Posted on 9/11/16 at 7:34 pm to Cowboyfan89
quote:
So, climate change causes record rainfalls and record fires. If we combine the two, is everything just normal?
No. We talkin Kalifornification here. It can never be associated with anything "normal" again.
Posted on 9/11/16 at 8:02 pm to Cowboyfan89
Huh.
And here I was thinking that fire was the cause of wildfires
And here I was thinking that fire was the cause of wildfires
Posted on 9/11/16 at 8:10 pm to Cowboyfan89
It also caused me to snore last night damn climate change
Posted on 9/11/16 at 9:11 pm to Cowboyfan89
quote:
Those systems functioned perfectly fine with fire centuries ago, before Europeans populated the area.
Right. And we can just ignore the billions of dollars worth of homes and businesses that those Europeans built, because they are not a factor at all in how things are managed?
Here's a controlled burn that did not go as planned in New Mexico :
quote:
The Cerro Grande Fire was a disastrous forest fire in New Mexico, United States of America, that occurred in May 2000. The fire started as a controlled burn, and became uncontrolled owing to high winds and drought conditions. Over 400 families in the town of Los Alamos, New Mexico, lost their homes in the resulting 48,000-acre (190 km²) fire. Structures at Los Alamos National Laboratory were also destroyed or damaged, although without loss or destruction of any of the special nuclear material housed there. Amazingly, there was no loss of human life. The US General Accounting Office estimated total damage at $1 billion.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but don't make it sound like people are idiots for not doing what YOU think they should do. It's not that simple.
Posted on 9/11/16 at 9:37 pm to sincerecontact
quote:
Here's a controlled burn that did not go as planned in New Mexico :
There's a reason why they don't call them "controlled burns" in the industry anymore.
Posted on 9/11/16 at 10:03 pm to sincerecontact
Who's making anyone to sound like an idiot? My issue is that an organization (NWF) is pushing an agenda.
Without knowing the facts of that situation, it sounds like they tried to burn in conditions that were not very conducive. The winds could have been accounted for. This is why burners have to fill out a burn plan in Louisiana, to reduce the likelihood of such disasters.
I also NEVER SUGGESTED that natural burns should be the norm. Of course there are human considerations in the matter. But burns are conducted all the time by trained professionals that know what they are doing in less than conducive conditions. And if burns cannot be conducted, there are other means to reduce fuel loads.
The fact is, NWF is trying to pass this entire issue off as a climatic problem, without any consideration as to whether management is an issue. Based on what I've read and been told, the proper management is not being utilized, whether that be fire, mechanical, or other means.
The fact that California and the Forest Service would rather wipe out a particular vegetation community is just one piece of evidence. Instead of managing communities to reduce fuel loads and fire potential, they are creating an unstable system.
Without knowing the facts of that situation, it sounds like they tried to burn in conditions that were not very conducive. The winds could have been accounted for. This is why burners have to fill out a burn plan in Louisiana, to reduce the likelihood of such disasters.
I also NEVER SUGGESTED that natural burns should be the norm. Of course there are human considerations in the matter. But burns are conducted all the time by trained professionals that know what they are doing in less than conducive conditions. And if burns cannot be conducted, there are other means to reduce fuel loads.
The fact is, NWF is trying to pass this entire issue off as a climatic problem, without any consideration as to whether management is an issue. Based on what I've read and been told, the proper management is not being utilized, whether that be fire, mechanical, or other means.
The fact that California and the Forest Service would rather wipe out a particular vegetation community is just one piece of evidence. Instead of managing communities to reduce fuel loads and fire potential, they are creating an unstable system.
Posted on 9/11/16 at 10:07 pm to sincerecontact
Those people didn't know what they were doing for starters
Fire is bad mmkay
Cutting down trees is bad mmkay
Let the professionals do their jobs and you won't have problems. As much as you think forestry is a bunch of necks sitting around seeing who can spit chew the farthest, it's not. There is a lot of science and technology behind it. Doing it well is an art.
It's actually the #1 agricultural commodity coming out of LA, and has been for a very long time
Fire is bad mmkay
Cutting down trees is bad mmkay
Let the professionals do their jobs and you won't have problems. As much as you think forestry is a bunch of necks sitting around seeing who can spit chew the farthest, it's not. There is a lot of science and technology behind it. Doing it well is an art.
It's actually the #1 agricultural commodity coming out of LA, and has been for a very long time
This post was edited on 9/11/16 at 10:16 pm
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