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Message
re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham
Posted on 2/5/14 at 11:16 pm to Roger Klarvin
Posted on 2/5/14 at 11:16 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
"Were you there when your parents fricked you into existence?"
Technically I was swimming in my dad's ball sack
0
Posted on 2/6/14 at 9:31 am to Ross
quote:
It's just an example of people ignoring a valuable scientific contribution because it conflicts with their religion.
This is the rub for most people... Ham has taken what many believe to be a scientifically indefensible position.
He may be wrong in certain assumptions he makes, but his underlying premise is grounded in sound logic. When you believe something has always existed, whether it be the universe or God, (and all scientists must necessarilly believe one or the other) the passage of time itself is of no consequence. This is why I believe that evolution may be consistent with creationism.
But for me the bottom line is that you either believe in a Creator or you believe that something appeared from nothing. The latter violates every known scientific principle and is as indefensible as Ham's 6000 year theory
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 9:39 am
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:03 am to tiger25
quote:
give me an example
the gospels of Matthew and Luke differ on the age of the birth of Jesus by about a decade.
Matthew put it before 4 bc because he stated it was during the time of Herod who died in 4bc
Luke claimed it was 'in the time of Cygernia in Syria and the Roman census' which is known to be between 6-8AD and this census is also what made Joseph and Mary leave for Bethlehem.
there's a contradiction
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:06 am to mattloc
quote:
But for me the bottom line is that you either believe in a Creator or you believe that something appeared from nothing.
I don't believe in either. I believe that our universe came from another universe that almost annihilated itself, and that moment in time defined our physical reality (laws of physics, scale of particles...). I believe there are universes inside our universe and we are possibly a universe inside another.
To say stuff came from nothing would imply that nothing (space) came from something and I believe neither are true. When you simplify everything for the sake of explaining something like the existence of a creator in whom we are cast in the image of it gets stupid real damn quick.
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 10:08 am
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:10 am to mattloc
quote:
It's just an example of people ignoring a valuable scientific contribution because it conflicts with their religion.
I'm an old earth, evolution guy, but it's not as clear cut as people think. There's theories, within the scientific community, that the universe is very small and young. Think about it as if the universe is a tightly wound ball, and the light (images we see from our satellite's) is in a constant loop within this ball. Mind blowing. I would never debate the universe, because we really know nothing about it. Amazing topic, though.
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 10:11 am
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:24 am to mattloc
quote:
either believe in a Creator or you believe that something appeared from nothing.
Believing in a creator would mean something comes from "nothing". What was god doing in all that time before he created the earth 6,000 years ago?
Who is to say that there haven't always been multiple universes, and ours is one of trillions? You say "something appeared from nothing" only to downplay the fact that you don't know exactly how universes, namely ours, begin/began
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:31 am to mattloc
quote:
I believe sound logic demands that a creator formed the universe and the biological elements that exist within it
No offense, but just because you can't fathom exactly how life formed, or exactly how long our universe has been in existence, and everything in between--doesn't mean you should default to:
"I can't wrap my head around it so it only makes sense that god did it". And of course, you only believe YOUR god did it. Not the thousands of other gods in other cultures around the world with thousands of years of history and a rock solid faith and following attributed to their powers, too.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:45 am to The Calvin
quote]Believing in a creator would mean something comes from "nothing". What was god doing in all that time before he created the earth 6,000 years ago? [/quote]
As I have stated repeatedly the 6000 year old argument is full of holes scientifically.. but that does not result in the underlying premise being incorrect.
when you backtrack to the beginning of time, regardless of how many universes you believe have existed or not existed, at some point some thing was created
It is amusing that there are those who will critizise as "stupid" theories they dont agree with, only to reveal that they themselves believe in hypothesis even more ridiculous than those they criticize.
As I have stated repeatedly the 6000 year old argument is full of holes scientifically.. but that does not result in the underlying premise being incorrect.
quote:
Who is to say that there haven't always been multiple universes, and ours is one of trillions? You say "something appeared from nothing" only to downplay the fact that you don't know exactly how universes, namely ours, begin/began
when you backtrack to the beginning of time, regardless of how many universes you believe have existed or not existed, at some point some thing was created
It is amusing that there are those who will critizise as "stupid" theories they dont agree with, only to reveal that they themselves believe in hypothesis even more ridiculous than those they criticize.
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 10:50 am
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:48 am to The Calvin
quote:
No offense, but just because you can't fathom exactly how life formed, or exactly how long our universe has been in existence, and everything in between--doesn't mean you should default to:
"I can't wrap my head around it so it only makes sense that god did it". And of course, you only believe YOUR god did it. Not the thousands of other gods in other cultures around the world with thousands of years of history and a rock solid faith and following attributed to their powers, too.
You have not read that in my posts... I just think it is more foolish to say I cant wrap my head around how we got here so it just makes sense that the universe has always existed
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 10:52 am
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:50 am to mattloc
quote:
when you backtrack to the beginning of time, regardless of how many universes have believe have existed or not existed, at some point some thing was created
I'm assuming someone already brought this up in this thread, but if you think a god had to create the universe, wouldn't logic dictate that something had to create this god?
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:55 am to Patron Saint
Still front page? I'll leave this here:
LINK
Dreher is always good on this stuff. It isn't about the Nye/Ham debate specifically, but more what it lays out culturally and socially.
LINK
Dreher is always good on this stuff. It isn't about the Nye/Ham debate specifically, but more what it lays out culturally and socially.
quote:
What drives me crazy about this kind of thing is the false choice it presents: either you believe Genesis is a science textbook, or you believe in science textbooks, which means that Genesis cannot be true.
I reject this choice. What if you believe that Genesis is true on a profound (but not literal) level, and you believe that science reveals valid truths as well?
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:55 am to mattloc
A Universe from Nothing.
A lecture from Lawrence Krauss, in the event anyone is interested. It's pertinent to the discussion.
A lecture from Lawrence Krauss, in the event anyone is interested. It's pertinent to the discussion.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:55 am to The Calvin
quote:
What was god doing in all that time before he created the earth 6,000 years ago?
Well, I think both sides agree that there was no such thing as "time" before the universe came into existence.
Posted on 2/6/14 at 10:57 am to mattloc
quote:
when you backtrack to the beginning of time, regardless of how many universes you believe have existed or not existed, at some point some thing was created
I just find it funny that you say "when you backtrack to the beginning of time". The beginning of time in our universe? Again, how do you know (as someone mentioned) that our universe did not spring from the death of another? There are so many possibilities
quote:
t is amusing that there are those who will critizise as "stupid" theories they dont agree with, only to reveal that they themselves believe in hypothesis even more ridiculous than those they criticize.
It is amusing that there are people who will believe in things without ONE bit of evidence for their substance, things equivalent to glorified myths, in order to fit their narrative on how they believe this life is supposed to be lived. Scientists will say all the time that they do not know. I do not pretend to know exactly where life came from, or if time and space is infinite or not. But i do not default to the belief in ghosts, spirits, demons, devils, witches, etc. because I cannot understand these things
Posted on 2/6/14 at 11:07 am to The Calvin
quote:
It is amusing that there are people who will believe in things without ONE bit of evidence for their substance, things equivalent to glorified myths, in order to fit their narrative on how they believe this life is supposed to be lived. Scientists will say all the time that they do not know. I do not pretend to know exactly where life came from, or if time and space is infinite or not. But i do not default to the belief in ghosts, spirits, demons, devils, witches, etc. because I cannot understand these things
The error in your reasoning is that one premise being true necessarily results in another. That believing in a Creator equates to believing in witches.
Most of the criticism on this board of Creationism is directed at some Christian or Biblical interpretation of creation. I am not suggesting that Ham's version is correct, only that his underlying premise is correct
Posted on 2/6/14 at 11:08 am to The Calvin
So,Prometheus or Planet of the Apes?
Posted on 2/6/14 at 11:10 am to mattloc
quote:
I am not suggesting that Ham's version is correct, only that his underlying premise is correct
I think valid would be a better word here
Posted on 2/6/14 at 11:12 am to mattloc
quote:
That believing in a Creator equates to believing in witches.
Believing in "god", "jesus"(who was said to have performed supernatural miracles) or spirits is on the same page as believing in witches.
Both are claimed to have mystical powers beyond the knowledge of human reason, yet none have any substance for their existence. How am I wrong here?
Posted on 2/6/14 at 11:18 am to The Calvin
Identifying the Creator is irrelevant to my point. Although I could proceed logically through a series of observations to express my personal opinion...but I wont.
I will say this, if you assume there is a Creator then it would be logical to assume he has some presence or identity on earth. So then you begin examination of each religious philosophy
I will say this, if you assume there is a Creator then it would be logical to assume he has some presence or identity on earth. So then you begin examination of each religious philosophy
This post was edited on 2/6/14 at 11:20 am
Posted on 2/6/14 at 11:39 am to mattloc
quote:How is that, at all, a logical assumption to make? What is the reason for his physical presence? So that he could "die" for our sins? Why is this necessary? The entire concept has no real purpose other than to make a cool story.
I will say this, if you assume there is a Creator then it would be logical to assume he has some presence or identity on earth.
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