Started By
Message

Behind the Lion Air Crash, a Trail of Decisions Kept Pilots in the Dark

Posted on 2/4/19 at 9:30 am
Posted by RedRifle
Austin/NO
Member since Dec 2013
8328 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 9:30 am
LINK

Paging 777Tiger

quote:

In the brutally competitive jetliner business, the announcement in late 2010 that Airbus would introduce a more fuel-efficient version of its best-selling A320 amounted to a frontal assault on its archrival Boeing’s workhorse 737. Boeing scrambled to counterpunch. Within months, it came up with a plan for an upgrade of its own, the 737 Max, featuring engines that would yield similar fuel savings. And in the years that followed, Boeing pushed not just to design and build the new plane, but to persuade its airline customers and, crucially, the Federal Aviation Administration, that the new model would fly safely and handle enough like the existing model that 737 pilots would not have to undergo costly retraining. Boeing’s strategy set off a cascading series of engineering, business and regulatory decisions that years later would leave the company facing difficult questions about the crash in October of a Lion Air 737 Max off Indonesia. The causes of the crash, which killed 189 people, are still under investigation. Indonesian authorities are studying the cockpit voice recorder for insights into how the pilots handled the emergency, and are examining Lion Air’s long history of maintenance problems.

quote:

But the tragedy has become a focus of intense interest and debate in aviation circles because of another factor: the determination by Boeing and the F.A.A. that pilots did not need to be informed about a change introduced to the 737’s flight control system for the Max, some software coding intended to automatically offset the risk that the size and location of the new engines could lead the aircraft to stall under certain conditions. That judgment by Boeing and its regulator was at least in part a result of the company’s drive to minimize the costs of pilot retraining. And it appears to have left the Lion Air crew without a full understanding of how to address a malfunction that seems to have contributed to the crash: faulty data erroneously indicating that the plane was flying at a dangerous angle, leading the flight control system to repeatedly push the plane’s nose down.

quote:

Understanding how the pilots could have been left largely uninformed leads back to choices made by Boeing as it developed the 737 Max more than seven years ago, according to statements from Boeing and interviews with engineers, former Boeing employees, pilots, regulators and congressional aides. Those decisions ultimately prompted the company, regulators and airlines to conclude that training or briefing pilots on the change to the flight control system was unnecessary for carrying out well-established emergency procedures.

quote:

Boeing has taken the position that the pilots of the Lion Air flight should have known how to handle the emergency despite not knowing about the modification. The company has maintained that properly following established emergency procedures — essentially, a checklist — long familiar to pilots from its earlier 737s should have allowed the crew to handle a malfunction of the so-called maneuvering characteristics augmentation system, known as M.C.A.S., whether they knew it was on the plane or not.
Posted by RATeamWannabe
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2009
25943 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 9:48 am to
Lawsuits inbound
Posted by Drew Orleans
Member since Mar 2010
21577 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 9:53 am to
The day I find out there was a modification made to a flight control system that I wasn’t made aware of is the same day I tell whoever I am flying for to pound sand.
This post was edited on 2/4/19 at 9:54 am
Posted by barry
Location, Location, Location
Member since Aug 2006
50337 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 9:56 am to
Can someone in plain english remind me what happened.

The plane thought it was stalling and automatically dived due to new software but they didn't know how to keep it from diving?
Posted by roguetiger15
Member since Jan 2013
16148 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 9:57 am to
WOW
Posted by TheFlyingTiger
Member since Oct 2009
3993 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 10:00 am to
These same people who rake in export/import bank money as subsidies, build idiot drone cars, etc. want to build single pilot, or even pilot-less airplanes.

They cut corners to save a nickel on training costs for their over stretched Frankenstein 737, 180 ppl die.

An addendum to the training should have taken place for sure, but paying their way through the regulations has to stop. Aviation regulations were written in blood, and while theres no doubt some are burdensome and probably stupid, most are there for good reason.

It's not just paying, though. The ex/Im "boeing bank" that you and I pay for to backdoor their losses... ties that company directly to the taxpayer, so there's incentive to let boeing do whatever they need to compete more cheaply against the OPENLY subsidized Airbus.

Posted by GeauxxxTigers23
TeamBunt General Manager
Member since Apr 2013
62514 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 10:02 am to
I would lose my shite if I were a 737 Max pilot if I didn’t at least getting some kind of literature on the new system.
Posted by TheFlyingTiger
Member since Oct 2009
3993 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 10:03 am to
You'd be amazed how little systems knowledge they want you to have in this AQP day and age of training.
This post was edited on 2/4/19 at 10:04 am
Posted by Wtodd
Tampa, FL
Member since Oct 2013
67482 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 10:11 am to
quote:

Can someone in plain english remind me what happened.

The plane thought it was stalling and automatically dived due to new software but they didn't know how to keep it from diving?

You're on it.....there's a way for the pilot to turn the computer off but for some reason no one told the pilot.....kinda important shite to know
Posted by kywildcatfanone
Wildcat Country!
Member since Oct 2012
118943 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 10:28 am to
quote:

That judgment by Boeing and its regulator was at least in part a result of the company’s drive to minimize the costs of pilot retraining. And it appears to have left the Lion Air crew without a full understanding of how to address a malfunction that seems to have contributed to the crash: faulty data erroneously indicating that the plane was flying at a dangerous angle, leading the flight control system to repeatedly push the plane’s nose down.



How can boeing think (and convince the FAA) that retraining wasn't needed, unless they lied to the FAA. How stupid. Retraining costs are minimal compared to what they will ultimately cost them.

Companies that cut costs to save a few bucks always pay more in the long run.
Posted by shspanthers
Nashville, TN
Member since Sep 2007
766 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 10:28 am to
quote:

Can someone in plain english remind me what happened.

The plane thought it was stalling and automatically dived due to new software but they didn't know how to keep it from diving?


From what I understand, yeah. The software thought the plane was pitched up and automatically adjusted the flight surfaces to pitch down. They were in level flight, so it just pointed them at the ground. If I remember correctly, they recovered multiple times, but it kept nosediving. The last one they weren't able to recover from, and, obviously per the article, they didn't know what the root issue was, so they died still trying to figure out why the plane was doing what it was doing.
Posted by just1dawg
Virginia
Member since Dec 2011
1483 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 10:45 am to
The fault for most of this can be distilled down to two things:

1. Lion Air's poor maintenance standards
2. Lion Air's poor pilot training standards

Stability augmentation systems are not new. For example, the Dee Howard 500, the last great piston-engined executive plane, was certified in 1963 to the latest transport category (airline) standards. It had a rudder boost system that was automatically activated if an engine failed. This reduced the minimum controllable airspeed (VMC) from as much as 200 knots down to 95 knots (the slowest speed a multiengine plane can maintain while flying straight ahead).

Posted by 777Tiger
Member since Mar 2011
73856 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 10:50 am to
quote:

. It had a rudder boost system that was automatically activated if an engine failed.

could not be more apples to oranges here

quote:

This reduced the minimum controllable airspeed (VMC) from as much as 200 knots down to 95 knots (


rudder input does not reduce Vmc, in fact by definition, Vmc is lack of rudder authority
This post was edited on 2/4/19 at 12:06 pm
Posted by jlntiger
Member since Feb 2011
1440 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 11:01 am to
Someone posted an article earlier about the Air France crash and how the pilots really didn’t understand how the Airbus’s computer system worked . Crashed a plane that was perfectly fine . I know automation is good for the most part but dam these guys are still pilots
Posted by 777Tiger
Member since Mar 2011
73856 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 11:08 am to
quote:

the pilots really didn’t understand how the Airbus’s computer system worked .

I think the FO did have a lot of experience in that aircraft and had a good knowledge of the systems, it was a series of errors and misrecognition(there's a short, quick read book on this crash,) problem was the FB(relief pilot,) was in the left seat and he did not have a lot of experience or systems knowledge of the aircraft and they were actually fighting each other for control and making opposite control inputs, which in that aircraft nulls each other, to exacerbate the situation
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
98137 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 11:42 am to
IIRC the lead pilot was taking a nap. By the time he got back to the cockpit things had gone to shite.
Posted by WestSideTiger
Baton Rouge
Member since Jan 2004
3524 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 12:09 pm to
Let’s not forget:
quote:

Boeing has asserted the pilots on the next-to-last flight of the same Lion Air aircraft that crashed encountered a similar, if less severe, nose-down problem. They addressed it by flipping off the stabilizer cutout switches, in keeping with the emergency checklist. Still, Indonesian investigators found, the pilots broke from the checklist by flipping the switches back on again before turning them off for the rest of the flight. That flight, with different pilots from the flight that crashed, landed safely.

Also the plane should have been properly repaired at this point.
Posted by TheFlyingTiger
Member since Oct 2009
3993 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 12:13 pm to
Bet there's a maintenance log saying "ops check normal, could not duplicate, aircraft cleared for return to service"

Or something similar in there.
Posted by just1dawg
Virginia
Member since Dec 2011
1483 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 12:30 pm to
quote:

rudder input does not reduce Vmc, in fact by definition, Vmc is lack of rudder authority


It does in an piston-engined airplane with 2 x 2500hp engines, two small vertical tails, and unboosted flight controls.
Posted by 777Tiger
Member since Mar 2011
73856 posts
Posted on 2/4/19 at 12:53 pm to
quote:

It does

not

you can push the rudder full throw but until you have sufficient airflow over the control surfaces you do not have rudder authority, and have actually increased drag and worsened your state
first pageprev pagePage 1 of 2Next pagelast page

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitterInstagram